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Poor service

116 posts in this topic

If it is a known fact that some counterfeit coins are impossible to confidently differentiate from the genuine article and the same effort and expense is utilized to make this determination as would be the case in determining genuine or counterfeit, I would not expect my money to be refunded.

 

I would also consider it to be an honest opinion, as to authenticity. I would not want them to flip a coin to make the determination or return my money. The truth would suffice.

 

 

 

 

The truth is no opinion was stated.

Impossibility of performance is outside the business model stated by the TPG.

Whether confident differentiation is achieved or not, and regardless of expense of the effort, the business model professed by the TPG has not been achieved.

 

It is neither an honest or dishonest opinion. It is not an opinion.

 

"Can't figure it out" is not an opinion.

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Here's what the head cheese ATS said about this matter...so good luck sending them there.

 

"Questionable authenticity" means our opinion is in the range of "we're pretty sure it's counterfeit" to "we're absolutely sure it's counterfeit", usually the later. For legal reasons, we do not say "counterfeit." "Refund, no decision" means we are either not sure, or the coin is too messed up (super harshly cleaned or really dirty, etc.) to tell for sure one way or the other. Quote from PCGS hrh

 

In my opinion, submitting 5 raw Trade Dollars at the same time, is a 'red flag' in it's self.

 

Mr. HRH can achieve many things, and has.

 

Changing the word "unverifiable" to "questionable" may be one of the things he can't do, at least with a straight face that passes the Mr. Webster test.

 

Why is submitting 5 raw trade dollars at the same time any different from submitting 5 of anything at the same time, except that the China knockoff stories are well known to the collecting community? So are Bust and SL 1/2s.

 

It is the TPG business model to separate the stories from the submission, and render an opinion, so the flag color can be reasonably ascertained with a level of confidence that is consistent with the business model the TPG professes it offers.

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What's happened to NGC's graders? They must either be incompetent or lost their family jewels.

 

I sent in 6 Trade Dollars for certification and grading. I knew they were not the highest grade (XF to MS60), but wanted authentication that they were real. It costs about $50 each to do this.

 

When they came back, NGC said 4 of them were "AUTHENTICITY UNVERFIABLE" which to me means "DUH; I DON"T KNOW" What do they think I paid them to do??? I could have had my 9 year old grand-nephew tell me that and saved $200. Four big coin dealers all said they were real.

 

I guess I'll have to send them to the other company for grading. Makes me wish I hadn't wasted my money joining NGC.

 

 

What I don't like is someone who posts here for the first time, takes their potshots at the host and then disappears.

 

Also, his claim about "big coin dealers" saying they were real means nothing. I seem to recall a few years ago when some known counterfeit coins were shopped around one of the major shows, and the general opinion was that they were real.

 

Chris

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"Your certainty has allowed persons to be free and allowed others to be electrocuted."

 

Such is the nature of man. I cannot take full credit.

 

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What's happened to NGC's graders? They must either be incompetent or lost their family jewels.

 

I sent in 6 Trade Dollars for certification and grading. I knew they were not the highest grade (XF to MS60), but wanted authentication that they were real. It costs about $50 each to do this.

 

When they came back, NGC said 4 of them were "AUTHENTICITY UNVERFIABLE" which to me means "DUH; I DON"T KNOW" What do they think I paid them to do??? I could have had my 9 year old grand-nephew tell me that and saved $200. Four big coin dealers all said they were real.

 

I guess I'll have to send them to the other company for grading. Makes me wish I hadn't wasted my money joining NGC.

 

 

What I don't like is someone who posts here for the first time, takes their potshots at the host and then disappears.

 

Also, his claim about "big coin dealers" saying they were real means nothing. I seem to recall a few years ago when some known counterfeit coins were shopped around one of the major shows, and the general opinion was that they were real.

 

Chris

 

Whether it was right or wrong to do so, or there was an ulterior motive, it is an interesting and helpful subject.

 

It is the responsibility of the Host to clarify the validity of the event, not the reader or OP, if the Host wishes to do so.

 

I would think this is a situation (or hypothetical story) that the Host should clarify and be eager to do so, if for no other reason than to re-affirm the TPG business model for the customer.

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"Authenticity unverifiable" is a euphemism for counterfeit. Poor service would be if they didn't even tell you that.

 

Consider that the OP submitted 6 coins.

 

4 came back with the designation.

 

I wonder what the euphemism was for the 2 coins without the unverifiable verification. ;)

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Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

This

 

No opinion was offered. A non-opinion is not an opinion.

 

I feel your opinions are better suited for the PCGS Con Forum, sorry, Coin Forum. I'm really surprised that Mark Feld is siding with you. I guess he needs to go back to PCGS also.

 

I'll just state that for me I find you an overbearing Slug. I would appreciate it if you never post to my topics in this forum.

 

Enjoy your negative life and karma's a person_without_enough_empathy.

 

Lee

 

 

 

 

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The NGC dealer that submitted them did call NGC. All he got was non-answers. Why should we submit coins and pay them to authenticate a coin if they cannot give a definitive answer??? They could not provide any specific reasons for doubting the authenticity. The weight is correct and the die matchings are correct. Why can't they figure it out? They are supposed to be the experts!

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Trade dollars are an automatic "hot button" at the grading services. Tell me they are not scrutinized above and beyond normal grading practices?

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That is nonsense!

 

They are supposed to be experts that people can rely on for a definitive answer! Why should anyone spend money sending coins to get an I DON'T know response. A bum on the streets could give you that answer! I paid for correct professional answers not I DON'T KNOW.

 

If they don't know, they should not charge for it, and they probably should not even be in that business.

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Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

This

 

No opinion was offered. A non-opinion is not an opinion.

 

I feel your opinions are better suited for the PCGS Con Forum, sorry, Coin Forum. I'm really surprised that Mark Feld is siding with you. I guess he needs to go back to PCGS also.

 

I'll just state that for me I find you an overbearing Slug. I would appreciate it if you never post to my topics in this forum.

 

Enjoy your negative life and karma's a person_without_enough_empathy.

 

Lee

 

 

 

 

Lee, what, on earth, was that about?

 

I feel that when a submitter fails to receive an authentic or non-authentic determination from a grading company that he shouldn't be charged. And for that, you guess that I need to go back to PCGS ? Wow.

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I disagree. If "Authenticity unverifiable" is a euphemism for counterfeit, then why don't they just say that? They cannot even tell me why it is unverifiable. The weight and the die pairings are correct and those are the two major indicators.

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Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

This

 

No opinion was offered. A non-opinion is not an opinion.

 

I feel your opinions are better suited for the PCGS Con Forum, sorry, Coin Forum. I'm really surprised that Mark Feld is siding with you. I guess he needs to go back to PCGS also.

 

I'll just state that for me I find you an overbearing Slug. I would appreciate it if you never post to my topics in this forum.

 

Enjoy your negative life and karma's a person_without_enough_empathy.

 

Lee

 

 

 

 

lol

 

Disagreeing with another person is not karma. Using logic and a dictionary is not Karma. Using manners and courteous language when doing so is not karma. Resorting to anger and cursing and crude attempts to belittle when someone disagrees is ignorance and rudeness.

 

Silly.

 

There is an ignore function. You are able to avail yourself of the function anytime. Whether or not you like or dislike me is of no significant value to the world, nor is my lack of popularity.

 

I have always admired your Posts. However, this is an example of carrying Brand loyalty a bit to far for your own good. Any significant point you choose to make has been lost.

 

Your inability to accept the thoughts, or method of stating the thoughts, by another person, is your choice. It does not preclude the other person to responding on a public forum.

 

Your topics are of interest. I will comment if I have any interest to do so. If I don't, I won't.

 

I am sure you are not suggesting censorship for those that are not acceptable top you personally.

 

Disagreement with someone is only interpreted as negativity in the eyes, and to the ears, of the person that is being disagreed with. That is usually a sign of a person with bad manners and/or a lack of social education.

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One was in an NNC slab marked MS60 and it came back uncracked as a counterfeit; the other was graded at what I expected in XF40.

 

Thank you.

 

That is very helpful information, and raises other questions.

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mevhktThat is nonsense!

 

They are supposed to be experts that people can rely on for a definitive answer!

 

Why should anyone spend money sending coins to get an I DON'T know response. A bum on the streets could give you that answer! I paid for correct professional answers not I DON'T KNOW.

 

If they don't know, they should not charge for it, and they probably should not even be in that business.

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They are supposed to be experts that people can rely on for a definitive answer!

 

Why should anyone spend money sending coins to get an I DON'T know response. A bum on the streets could give you that answer!

 

I paid for correct professional answers not I DON'T KNOW.

 

If they don't know, they should not charge for it, and they probably should not even be in that business.

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Trade dollars are an automatic "hot button" at the grading services. Tell me they are not scrutinized above and beyond normal grading practices?

 

No disagreement Mr. Woody. The point being made is the TPG business model purpose, which in this case, does not appear to have been adhered to.

 

In light of the latest information from the OP, it is a little more confusing. 2 out of 6 coins received a definitive and decipherable opinion.... one negative, one positive, if we are keeping count. The other 4 received an I don't know. Fair enough. Pay the man back the fees for the other 4.

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Bull!

 

They are supposed to be experts that people can rely on for a definitive answer!

 

Why should anyone spend money sending coins to get an I DON'T know response. That actually puts their ability to correctly grade any coin, not just Trade Dollars into question.

 

A bum on the streets could give you an I DON'T KNOW answer!

 

I paid for correct professional answers not I DON'T KNOW.

 

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They are supposed to be experts that people can rely on for a definitive answer!

 

Why should anyone spend money sending coins to get an I DON'T know response. A bum on the streets could give you that answer!

 

I paid for correct professional answers not I DON'T KNOW.

 

If they don't know, they should not charge for it, and they probably should not even be in that business.

 

How many times are you going to post the same thing?

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I want to thank you gentlemen for an interesting discussion. Unless NGC pulls it's head out of a dark space, I suspect I learned an expensive lesson and know not to send trade dollars to them for grading.

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Perhaps you should post some images of your coins. There are interesting posts here that seem to suggest that TPGs will use vague terms to avoid legal issues in labeling something as counterfeit. While I find that odd personally, if true, maybe NGC is really opining that the pieces are not genuine (and not just merely inconclusive or suspect). Maybe we could help with images.

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Perhaps you should post some images of your coins. There are interesting posts here that seem to suggest that TPGs will use vague terms to avoid legal issues in labeling something as counterfeit. While I find that odd personally, if true, maybe NGC is really opining that the pieces are not genuine (and not just merely inconclusive or suspect). Maybe we could help with images.

 

It is also interesting that, according to the OP, one of the coins was labeled "counterfeit", and it was not cracked out of another TPG Holder. If, as the OP states, the word "counterfeit" was used in the opinion description, that is very interesting and contradicts any position of vagueness, I think.

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Perhaps you should post some images of your coins. There are interesting posts here that seem to suggest that TPGs will use vague terms to avoid legal issues in labeling something as counterfeit. While I find that odd personally, if true, maybe NGC is really opining that the pieces are not genuine (and not just merely inconclusive or suspect). Maybe we could help with images.

 

It is also interesting that, according to the OP, one of the coins was labeled "counterfeit", and it was not cracked out of another TPG Holder. If, as the OP states, the word "counterfeit" was used in the opinion description, that is very interesting and contradicts any position of vagueness, I think.

 

I read this thread in pieces and missed that; you're right John. And I also agree with you that NGC should have been more direct. As is, I don't think it constitutes the opinion that the OP paid for.

 

For those who might have missed the OP's subsequent post buried in this thread:

 

One was in an NNC slab marked MS60 and it came back uncracked as a counterfeit; the other was graded at what I expected in XF40.
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Here is what NGC outlines for the terms used:

 

NOT GENUINE, QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY, and AUTHENTICITY UNVERIFIABLE

 

To me an ambiguous AUTHENTICITY UNVERIFIABLE citation on a label is worthless and if a TPG cannot say GENUINE or NOT GENUINE then the fees should be returned less a processing charge.

 

The OP submitted the coins relying on the experience and knowledge of the TPG to say yea or nay.

 

As to value received (which is another issue here), I myself experienced what I felt (and still feel) to have received insufficient return on my monies spent with my 1913 TY I Obverse Struck Thru 5C Mint Error

 

I had numerous similar examples to make all presumption that my coin would have received a numeric grade. In addition, I'm still dumbfounded that they can grade a 90% OC coin but not this?

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