FAKE NGC SLABS

[coinman_23885]

Of course...fake slabs with the correct secret number could still be made by collecting numbers from slabs seen in person such as at an auction viewing. So the RFID chip would help for about 6 months to a year.

 

It would at least hinder the orient where many of these fake slabs come from. Anything that makes it more difficult for them is worth trying. As for online sales from eBay, that is always going to be risky unless the buyer is educated enough to be able to recognize the fake or inferior coins in the slab.

[GoldFinger1969]

I wish the grading services would start inserting RFID chips hidden in the slab that can be read externally with a reader. This technology is widely used in dogs and I see no reason why it wouldn't work with a slab. The reader could give a secondary number that could be used (in addition to the certification number on the label) to verify it. You would need the actual coin in hand to know the secondary number hidden on the chip, which would keep people from going through auction archives to round up valid cert numbers. These probably cost about a $1 to make

This is an interesting item...with smartphone apps easy to use, you could have PCGS/NGC have web apps that would allow Apple or Android phones to scan to verify a coin at home or at an LCS or coin show.

 

The key is to have something beyond the number to ID the coin. Much as the 3/4 digit number on the back of a credit card and the new digitally-encrypted data on new cards.

[njf]

I wish the grading services would start inserting RFID chips hidden in the slab that can be read externally with a reader. This technology is widely used in dogs and I see no reason why it wouldn't work with a slab. The reader could give a secondary number that could be used (in addition to the certification number on the label) to verify it. You would need the actual coin in hand to know the secondary number hidden on the chip, which would keep people from going through auction archives to round up valid cert numbers.

 

These probably cost about a $1 to make:

 

http://www.robotshop.com/en/tag-it-hf-I-circular-24-rfid-tag.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwuI-oBRCEi87g0K3O8OoBEiQAb25WAVpZgn2j4YTTGz1a66JuZVBcPTqF5J2bLoJG1qLtno8aAvs98P8HAQ

 

The theory is sound. For added security, they could have a special hashed key based on the coin ID. PCGS/NGC/ANACS could come out with their own readers to verify the seemingly random jibberish is legit (think keygen for software). Only problem is, once the readers got out, chinese counterfeiters could reverse engineer the RFID info. I guess they could only sell to registered dealers, but how long until one is stolen...

[Minger1179]

I wouldn't want RFID chips in the slabs. Not that it is horrible idea... but I would hate to broadcast all my info for anyone to pick up. Anyone that had some computer knowledge could pick up that signal and find out exactly how to cherry pick someone and steal your most valuables. Might as well just put your list of what you own on the front of your suitcases or safes or whatever and show them which ones are the MOST valuable in your collection.

[e1cnr]

I just got some PCG/S coins back and there is a code in the hologram sticker. Once slab in hand, a phone call away to confirm. I still like NGCs cert verification with a picture of coin although probably not helpful with modern 69-70's.

[bstrauss3]

You mis-understand what RFID transmits - it's not "all your personal information" , it's just a # used as a lookup in a database.

 

What they could do is to encode the cert # with other information [won't go into salting here] and encrypt that with their private [secret] key. Then anyone could read the # from the tag, decode it using the published, public key - and be sure only NGC or PCGS or whomever actually encoded the information.

 

But those write-once tags are more expensive and require machinery...

[Minger1179]

I am not saying it will transmit all my "info", my point is that it will broadcast INFO... which means that I can roll by your place or your bag (think of getting on your wifi unsecurely) and see what you have and determine if what you got is worth taking. I don't like that.

[Conder101]

The chips have a very limited range (typically not more than a foot or two).

 

What they could do is to encode the cert # with other information [won't go into salting here] and encrypt that with their private [secret] key. Then anyone could read the # from the tag, decode it using the published, public key - and be sure only NGC or PCGS or whomever actually encoded the information.

But if I am counterfeiting the slab all I have to do is copy the signal the genuine slab puts out. I don't have decode it or reencrypt it to put it on my fake chip. I just have to broadcast a copy of what the TPG put on their chip. My signal will still decrypt with the TPG's public key and will appear legitimate.

 

 

[bstrauss3]

Right - that's why true PKI uses double encryption. My public key + your private key - only I can read it and only you could have encoded it. But that also means nobody else can use the id to verify and requires that the coin be reholdered after every sale...

 

The problem is that if you want the public to be able to read the data to verify, then the public can read it for whatever purpose.

 

In order to avoid the drive-by issues, you can't use RF - you would need a contact smart card infrastructure like chip&pin... [coming soon to your credit cards].

 

Or we could all line our suitcases with aluminium foil.

 

The more you learn about this stuff, the more the tinfoil hat brigade doesn't seem quite so crazy!

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Guys, the new European-employed digital encrypted chips the credit card companies are rolling out later this year -- can't something like that be used ?

 

I can't believe with all the digital technology we have that there isn't a very cheap, 99.99% effective solution to counterfeit slabs that would not cost the TPGs much to embed.

[Steve Caruso-migration]

The problem is even with these chips or cryptographical enhancements, given how fast technology is progressing we must assume that *all* solutions to counterfeiting TPG holders are *temporary.* It's merely a matter of time before the counterfeiters find a way to fake it.

 

Not to mention that there are how many decades of slabs without these new features and without images taken of them. There is nothing to protect those right now unless an aggressive campaign of slab upgrading occurs. (I assume the TPGs would *love* that. :-) )

[GoldFinger1969]

Steve, I have to think that the digital methods can cut down on fraud alot.

 

The new digital encryption is already in use in European credit cards and the incidence of fraud has gone down alot from early indications.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I would think a high res picture of the coin in hand and an online database with pictures of the coin in a slab would go a long way towards making counterfitting difficult.

 

How many coins a year do they grade now that I signed em up to hose xxx,xxx,xxx high res pics?

[Conder101]

How many coins a year do they grade now that I signed em up to hose xxx,xxx,xxx high res pics?

About 150,000 per month or about 1.8 million per year.

[Steve Caruso-migration]

Steve, I have to think that the digital methods can cut down on fraud alot.

 

The new digital encryption is already in use in European credit cards and the incidence of fraud has gone down alot from early indications.

 

Yes, but credit cards are things that have a lifespan. There are millions of PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, etc. holders out there which aren't going to be upgraded at set intervals, which leaves plenty of fallow land for counterfeiting regardless of whatever the newest tech is.

[GoldFinger1969]

How many coins a year do they grade now that I signed em up to hose xxx,xxx,xxx high res pics?

About 150,000 per month or about 1.8 million per year.

Is that PCGS ? I can't find it in the 10-K but it jibes with earlier estimates I made of about 5,000 coins a day.

 

It's too many....graders there are easily doing 600-800 per day...sometimes 1,200 a day. At 8 hours a day, that's 100 coins an hour....that is NOT enough time to properly evaluate most coins, especially non-moderns.

[GoldFinger1969]

Steve, I have to think that the digital methods can cut down on fraud alot.The new digital encryption is already in use in European credit cards and the incidence of fraud has gone down alot from early indications.

Yes, but credit cards are things that have a lifespan. There are millions of PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, etc. holders out there which aren't going to be upgraded at set intervals, which leaves plenty of fallow land for counterfeiting regardless of whatever the newest tech is.

If PCGS and NGC were to offer special deals for sending in earlier-slabbed coins to incorporate some new anti-theft technology, it could be a BOON for them and give them YEARS of revenue that they don't have on the horizon.

 

If the market valued this technology, even previously-slabbed coins would be sent in to get the new enhancement.

 

You could just get the security enhancement or you could also get it re-graded.