Contemporary copies...Is it Gradable ? Should it be Graded ?

[Manish Golecha]

Hello everyone , i have a few Contemporary copies does NGC grade it ? Also is it worth grading contemporary copies ??

 

any idea , suggestions ..all are welcomed :-)

[physics-fan3.14]

NGC doesn't grade counterfeits.

 

And no, with a few exceptions, contemporary counterfeits are not usually worth much.

[RWB]

No. It's fake. Junk. Scrap metal. A fraud.

[dcarr]

Some vintage counterfeits have high valuations, if the piece was originally produced to place into circulation.

 

Two examples:

 

A "Henning" 1944 no-"P" nickel is worth perhaps $50 or more, while the US Mint version in the same grade is worth maybe $1 .

 

"Privately Made" Morgan Silver Dollars that have VAM variety numbers assigned can also be worth more than the US Mint version. Sometimes much more.

[coinman_23885]

Some vintage counterfeits have high valuations, if the piece was originally produced to place into circulation.

 

Two examples:

 

A "Henning" 1944 no-"P" nickel is worth perhaps $50 or more, while the US Mint version in the same grade is worth maybe $1 .

 

"Privately Made" Morgan Silver Dollars that have VAM variety numbers assigned can also be worth more than the US Mint version. Sometimes much more.

 

But this is the world forum; the U.S. and world markets are very different in many regards.

[dcarr]

Some vintage counterfeits have high valuations, if the piece was originally produced to place into circulation.

 

Two examples:

 

A "Henning" 1944 no-"P" nickel is worth perhaps $50 or more, while the US Mint version in the same grade is worth maybe $1 .

 

"Privately Made" Morgan Silver Dollars that have VAM variety numbers assigned can also be worth more than the US Mint version. Sometimes much more.

 

But this is the world forum; the U.S. and world markets are very different in many regards.

 

There are several known types of European gold coins that are counterfeits which are actually platinum plated with gold. These can be worth more than the corresponding official government issues, even though the "melt" values are roughly equal.

 

It is a mistake to blindly claim that any counterfeit is worthless "junk". Most are. Some are not.

 

[Conder101]

Whether they will grade them depends on what they are. Some of the known listed varieties of Vermont coppers are contemporary counterfeits and I would imagine they would grade them. As a rule I don't believe they grade contemporary counterfeit British half pence, unless they happen to be fake British half pence struck at Machins Mills. Many Conder tokens listed in D&H were contemporary counterfeits of other tokens, and they slab and grade those.

 

It seems that if the contemporary counterfeits have a long history of collectablity, and especially if they have a published catalog there is a chance they will grade them. I would not be surprised to eventually see NGC slabbing the Bogus Busties by D#. They are actively collected and they do have a published reference work.

[RWB]

Grind up all the modern fakes from any source, and make the metal into chains to hold the counterfeiter scum away from honest people.

[Conder101]

Roger, we aren't discussing modern fakes we are talking about contemporary counterfeits that were intended to defraud as they circulated at the time as money.

[RWB]

Contemporary counterfeits are a legitimate part of economic history -- they were largely made to pass as money, not as collectibles.

[Conder101]

Morgan dollars were also made to pass as money, not as collectibles. They grade Morgan dollars. Since the contemporary counterfeits served the same purpose, at the same time, and also fulfilled "a legitimate part of economic history", AND in many cases are collected, why not grade them as well. As I pointed out, in some cases they already do.

[RAM-VT]

This is an interesting question/topic.

 

The key word here is "contemporary" counterfeits/copies/fakes.

 

First before I address contemporary counterfeits I know NGC certifies I would like to emphasize that many contemporary counterfeits a quite collectable. Some have been addressed here such as colonials.

 

I once found a Mexican eight reale piece that was obviously a contemporary counterfeit in that it was in circulation long enough for some of the silver plating had worn away exposing the core metal. I listed it on e-bay as a contemporary counterfeit and I received an e-mail back that my starting price was way low and that it was a very rare contemporary counterfeit and he even provided me the catalogue number which I add to my listing but I left the starting price where it was. It ended up bring well over $100.

 

As for contemporary counterfeits that that NGC does certify they are ancients. As far as I am concerned there are three types of ancient contemporary counterfeits that NGC certifies.

 

1- Contemporary Roman counterfeits called Fourees or Fourrees. These typically are made of bronze or lead with a silver coating or wash. Some specimens can bring good money.

 

2- Barbarous imitations, the specimens that I have of this coinage are made of bronze and are intended to pass as small bronze Roman coins and I believe were typically made by peoples who lived in areas around the Roman Empire.

 

3- Celtic coinage - Celtic coinage was made in areas bordering the Greek and Roman Empires. This coinage was made to facilitate trade among Celtic Peoples and really was not contemporary counterfeits of Greek or Roman coinage. However some Celtic coinage really was based directly on designs of Greek and Roman coinage. I believe in such cases one can reasonably ask were they trying to counterfeit Greek or Roman coinage?

 

Anyway NGC does certify all three of the above types of coinage.

 

RaminVT

[World Colonial]

It seems that if the contemporary counterfeits have a long history of collectablity, and especially if they have a published catalog there is a chance they will grade them. I would not be surprised to eventually see NGC slabbing the Bogus Busties by D#. They are actively collected and they do have a published reference work.

 

Based upon my limited knowledge of this subject, I agree. Not exactly the same but there is an 1808 Bolivia 1/4 real in gold which is actually a fantasy coin which I have seen graded and sold by Heritage multiple times. Heritage specifically mentions that is has traditionally been included by collectors in the series.

[gmarguli]

It seems that if the contemporary counterfeits have a long history of collectablity, and especially if they have a published catalog there is a chance they will grade them. I would not be surprised to eventually see NGC slabbing the Bogus Busties by D#. They are actively collected and they do have a published reference work.

 

Based upon my limited knowledge of this subject, I agree. Not exactly the same but there is an 1808 Bolivia 1/4 real in gold which is actually a fantasy coin which I have seen graded and sold by Heritage multiple times. Heritage specifically mentions that is has traditionally been included by collectors in the series.

 

This "coin" is listed in the Unusual World Coin book. Any "coin" listed in this book gets a larger amount of collector interest and acceptability as a "coin".

 

PCGS will grade pretty much anything in this book even if the coin is what we would normally refer to as a counterfeit or fantasy. NGC will grade a very small portion of the coins in this book, but I have been told they reviewing it and adding more coins in it to grade. Hopefully they start to grade them all.

 

[Nap-migration]

NGC will slab fourree Roman coins I believe.