At what point does toning become environmental damage ?

[TonerGuy]

Damage to the point of it not being gradable ?

 

Damage to the point where it would keep a coin from receiving a CAC bean ?

 

How is this coin a PCGS MS63 with a CAC green bean... ?

 

 

 

[e1cnr]

the shadows make me think it is not in a slab

 

pictures of colorful coins can be deceptive - especially proofs

 

 

pitting would be upgradable

[mumu]

the shadows make me think it is not in a slab

 

pictures of colorful coins can be deceptive - especially proofs

 

 

pitting would be upgradable

 

That looks like a shadow effect added in pshop. Might be slabbed, cropped and effect added.

[BillJones]

To me toning becomes environmental damage at the point where it kills the luster. It has gone way over the edge when a silver coin becomes black and pitted.

 

As for the Peace Dollar you posted, I think that it is ugly. I especially dislike the dark area from Ms. Liberty's eye to in front of her nose and the spots on her lower chin and upper neck. To me that is environmental damage.

[wdrob]

 

It certainly looks as though it was in a slab when that picture was taken.

 

Well beyond my personal tastes.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Low enough value so that it doesn't matter? CAC would probably sticker many coins if you lowered the grade enough so that they would then be B or A coins in that grade.

[TonerGuy]

Ummm it's in a PCGS MS63 slab with a CAC green bean...

 

I dont think the photos have been played with other than to possibly enhance what little color there is. This coin is being offered by a well known and well liked dealer for $1000+.

 

If this coin was submitted by me... it would come back in an details slab with environmental damage designation...

[Mark T]

Ummm it's in a PCGS MS63 slab with a CAC green bean...

 

I dont think the photos have been played with other than to possibly enhance what little color there is. This coin is being offered by a well known and well liked dealer for $1000+.

 

If this coin was submitted by me... it would come back in an details slab with environmental damage designation...

 

You do not have the coin in hand so you are going to make this conclusion based on a photo ??

My bet is that the coin looks fantastic in hand, even based on the picture I think the coin looks good.

[Nutmeg Coin]

"A rare opportunity to buy the extremely popular Peace dollar with spectacular toning that is sure to please the most discriminating collector of toned specimens. Hints of sunset and sunrise orange, that puts the most impressive golden sunsets to shame. Streaks of bright green, blue and magenta rainbow toning reminiscent of the best displays of aurora borealis as have been observed since recorded time on planet earth. This precious silver orb has it all, offered at an affordable price. Layaways are available at attractive rates and flexibility. Sure to go quickly so call now so you won't miss this once in a lifetime opportunity".

[Danye West]

Those pictures do make it look unattractive

[BillJones]

I have seen Barber Proof coins with original toning in high grade holders like PR-66 and 67 for which I would not pay a fraction of the listed catalog price. Yes the toning is original, but it has gone so far that when you swirl the coins under the light, the Proof mirrors around the edges of the piece are completely dark with no reflection whatsoever. That is environmental damage to me. As much as I don't like most dipped white older Proof coins, I would rather have one of those than a Proof piece that now has impaired luster because of excessive tarnish.

[TonerGuy]

 

You do not have the coin in hand so you are going to make this conclusion based on a photo ??

My bet is that the coin looks fantastic in hand, even based on the picture I think the coin looks good.

 

What conclusion am I making ? I am asking questions...

 

My comment about it coming back in a details slab is actually based on my personal history of submitting toned Peace $ to both NGC and PCGS.

 

I wasnt really asking if the coin is attractive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and personally I like darker toned coins. But this toning looks terminal to me. I have seen/owned black toned Morgans that have hints of color that are beautiful. To my eye this coin has dark toning with no luster showing through the dark areas.

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder [...]

You mean in the eye of the TPGs. In the eye of the beholders, it goes something like this: "Golly, I absolutely adore this toning, I hope it's not AT!" Then he finds out a TPG says it's AT: "Golly, I hate it now!" Some eye...

[MarkFeld]

 

You do not have the coin in hand so you are going to make this conclusion based on a photo ??

My bet is that the coin looks fantastic in hand, even based on the picture I think the coin looks good.

 

What conclusion am I making ? I am asking questions...

 

My comment about it coming back in a details slab is actually based on my personal history of submitting toned Peace $ to both NGC and PCGS.

 

I wasnt really asking if the coin is attractive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and personally I like darker toned coins. But this toning looks terminal to me. I have seen/owned black toned Morgans that have hints of color that are beautiful. To my eye this coin has dark toning with no luster showing through the dark areas.

 

 

The toning doesn't appear to be what I would describe as "terminal". I say that because I think I can still see though it to the surface of the coin. And it's not what I would describe as black.

[coinman_23885]

I would categorize toning as environmental damage when it completely destroys the original luster and is extremely dark. Although I do not find the coin attractive, I do not think the toning is terminal and I do not think it deserves to be net graded as environmental damage (yet).

 

If the images are accurate, I am surprised, however, that CAC stickered the coin. Eye appeal is a consideration in grading mint state coins and this coin is not attractive at all.

[leeg]

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I have had coins I posted here that were judged as E.D. but turned out to conserve well enough.

[TonerGuy]

I say that because I think I can still see though it to the surface of the coin. And it's not what I would describe as black.

 

Looking at the reverse of the coin around the rims... how you would describe it then ?

 

Lee posted a great example of what I think is a lesser darkly toned coin being called environmental damage by PCGS. I think that coin is several shades lighter than the posted Peace $

 

Does anyone have a coin photo of what terminal toning is then ? I am confused...

[Hard Times]

I would categorize toning as environmental damage when it completely destroys the original luster and is extremely dark. Although I do not find the coin attractive, I do not think the toning is terminal and I do not think it deserves to be net graded as environmental damage (yet).

 

If the images are accurate, I am surprised, however, that CAC stickered the coin. Eye appeal is a consideration in grading mint state coins and this coin is not attractive at all.

 

My experience has been that CAC and I disagree of what constitutes eye appeal on frequent occasions (maybe 20% of the time or so). This experience is based on the assumption that an A or B coin must have positive eye appeal. In my view, many CAC coins I have seen in hand do not have positive eye appeal for the grade. So this means eye appeal is not always a primary metric for an A or B coin in CAC eyes, or that I am clueless to what good eye appeal is. This might be one of them with detracting eye appeal IMO, but then again, the images look very juiced and if one tones down the images those ugly dark rings might not really be so bad. Better to see in hand to make a call on this one.

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

I would categorize toning as environmental damage when it completely destroys the original luster and is extremely dark. Although I do not find the coin attractive, I do not think the toning is terminal and I do not think it deserves to be net graded as environmental damage (yet).

 

If the images are accurate, I am surprised, however, that CAC stickered the coin. Eye appeal is a consideration in grading mint state coins and this coin is not attractive at all.

 

My experience has been that CAC and I disagree of what constitutes eye appeal on frequent occasions (maybe 20% of the time or so). This experience is based on the assumption that an A or B coin must have positive eye appeal. In my view, many CAC coins I have seen in hand do not have positive eye appeal for the grade. So this means eye appeal is not always a primary metric for an A or B coin in CAC eyes, or that I am clueless to what good eye appeal is. This might be one of them with detracting eye appeal IMO, but then again, the images look very juiced and if one tones down the images those ugly dark rings might not really be so bad. Better to see in hand to make a call on this one.

 

Best, HT

 

I agree with you 100%. The thing that I find inconsistent (if the images are correct) is that I have seen CAC refuse to sticker coins nice coins with darker toning, attributing the denial to the toning and not other factors. In some cases, the coin looked perfectly acceptable to me and were brighter than the Peace Dollar in this thread.

[Mozin]

I would not care to own the coin in the picture --- IF, the coin looks at all like the pictures. Since CAC stickered the coin, I expect the coin in hand looks far better than the pictures of it.

 

The only coins I owned that would not cross, because of environmental damage, I sold. None had the CAC sticker.

[Hard Times]

 

 

I would categorize toning as environmental damage when it completely destroys the original luster and is extremely dark. Although I do not find the coin attractive, I do not think the toning is terminal and I do not think it deserves to be net graded as environmental damage (yet).

 

If the images are accurate, I am surprised, however, that CAC stickered the coin. Eye appeal is a consideration in grading mint state coins and this coin is not attractive at all.

 

My experience has been that CAC and I disagree of what constitutes eye appeal on frequent occasions (maybe 20% of the time or so). This experience is based on the assumption that an A or B coin must have positive eye appeal. In my view, many CAC coins I have seen in hand do not have positive eye appeal for the grade. So this means eye appeal is not always a primary metric for an A or B coin in CAC eyes, or that I am clueless to what good eye appeal is. This might be one of them with detracting eye appeal IMO, but then again, the images look very juiced and if one tones down the images those ugly dark rings might not really be so bad. Better to see in hand to make a call on this one.

 

Best, HT

 

I agree with you 100%. The thing that I find inconsistent (if the images are correct) is that I have seen CAC refuse to sticker coins nice coins with darker toning, attributing the denial to the toning and not other factors. In some cases, the coin looked perfectly acceptable to me and were brighter than the Peace Dollar in this thread.

 

And I have seen coins with dripping, gushing, drop dead eye appeal that are correctly graded for wear and hits, that CAC did not bean. Leaving me at a total loss as to what they are doing.... One man's opinion.....

 

Best, HT

[FranklinHalfAddict]

I haven't posted here in quite some time, but I had to when I saw the description of that peace dollar.

 

"A rare opportunity to buy the extremely popular Peace dollar with spectacular toning that is sure to please the most discriminating collector of toned specimens. Hints of sunset and sunrise orange, that puts the most impressive golden sunsets to shame. Streaks of bright green, blue and magenta rainbow toning reminiscent of the best displays of aurora borealis as have been observed since recorded time on planet earth. This precious silver orb has it all, offered at an affordable price. Layaways are available at attractive rates and flexibility. Sure to go quickly so call now so you won't miss this once in a lifetime opportunity"

 

That thing is butt ugly. It pales in comparison to even the most mundane sunrise or sunset. I have literally taken craps that look better than that thing.

And the comparison to an aurora borealis is just laughable. Whoever wrote that thing up has to be half blind.

Who in their right mind would ever consider paying anywhere close to $1000 for that?

That description takes sugar coating and embellishing to an amazing extreme!

[BillJones]

Some collectors are so desperate to acquire a Peace Dollar with color that they will entertain buying anything with some colorful tarnish on it.

 

This piece reminds me of a very scarce piece of early copper that I considered buying. Ninety five percent of the coin is wonderful, but the other 5% has scratches and marks, that were not from circulation which would make the piece a "no grade" if it were to be submitted to NGC or PCGS. As such it is still a remarkable coin, but one would hesitate to pay a six figure number for it because of the problems.

 

The same applies here. The coin under the toning is worth about $50. With the toning the coin because of great interest to some people, but the toning has issues if the photo is accurate. Is the coin still worth 20 times the normal amount because the toning? I don't think so, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I can't look past the unattractive toned areas in a focal area of the design. It would "bug" me every time I looked at it.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here was a coin that some thought was ED:

 

http://i.imgur.com/lHG2qeG.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/LTeq0V6.jpg

 

Would NGC and CAC have given the thumbs up? I didn't bother, as a dipped lustrous coin it was easier to sell.

 

Same thing was true of this coin, rejected as a toned coin but graded fine once conserved:

 

http://i.imgur.com/GafQ6.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/cynB0.jpg

[Kurtdog]

Here was a coin that some thought was ED:

Just so you know, they have pills for that nowadays.

[TonerGuy]

Here was a coin that some thought was ED:

 

http://i.imgur.com/lHG2qeG.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/LTeq0V6.jpg

 

Would NGC and CAC have given the thumbs up? I didn't bother, as a dipped lustrous coin it was easier to sell.

 

Same thing was true of this coin, rejected as a toned coin but graded fine once conserved:

 

http://i.imgur.com/GafQ6.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/cynB0.jpg

 

What about the after photos ?? How well were these conserved ?

[jom]

My experience has been that CAC and I disagree of what constitutes eye appeal on frequent occasions (maybe 20% of the time or so). This experience is based on the assumption that an A or B coin must have positive eye appeal.

 

And I have seen coins with dripping, gushing, drop dead eye appeal that are correctly graded for wear and hits, that CAC did not bean. Leaving me at a total loss as to what they are doing.... One man's opinion.....

 

It certainly could have been a "C" coin that had eye appeal in their opinion. Just because a coin is possibly overgraded (ie a C coin) doesn't mean it didn't have eye appeal.

 

So it really comes down to whether you agree with CAC on the grade itself not whether it was eye appealing.

 

jom

[jom]

The same applies here. The coin under the toning is worth about $50. With the toning the coin because of great interest to some people, but the toning has issues if the photo is accurate. Is the coin still worth 20 times the normal amount because the toning? I don't think so, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I can't look past the unattractive toned areas in a focal area of the design. It would "bug" me every time I looked at it.

 

That's certainly all true for you. Others may disagree, hence the high price paid for these.

 

For me it has two things I don't like:

 

1) It's a Peace Dollar which I've never cared for.

 

2) The obverse spots.

 

I do like the reverse due to the white center with surrounding color....although the edge color may very well be too dark.

 

As to the price paid for these: I wouldn't pay it either but that's my choice so what others do doesn't concern me much. To each their own.

 

jom

[lehigh96]

We had a little discussion about this exact topic on Cointalk a few weeks ago.

 

GTG-1916 Walking Liberty

 

I agree with Bill Jones, the environmental damage line should exist when the terminal state toning reaches a point where a significant portion of the luster is muted.

 

As for the Peace Dollar shown in the OP, I don't find it very attractive but I think most of the toning is something less than black and I don't think that the luster has been muted on either the obverse or reverse. That said, I don't like the area around the bridge of the nose and I would understand why some would consider it to have environmental damage.