Ankur is at it again..........

[Hard Times]

From ATS:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=935981

 

Ankur's post in quotes:

 

"Lack of faith in NGC"

 

Who be that Ankur? Eric Newman? No, and 80% of the NGC grades for his coins that were eligible CACed and collectively sold for bazillions of dinero.

 

Don Patrick? No, he exclusively used NGC for his collection and most that were eligible CACed and collectively sold for $26 million. Two legendary collections.

 

Smithsonian Institution? No, they exclusively used NGC.

 

So please elaborate who does not have faith in NGC Ankur.

 

Best, HT

[RWB]

Ankur Wat?

 

 

[Hard Times]

Ankur's away, far far away......................

[Nutmeg Coin]

There are a bunch of dealers and serious collectors who represent the PCGS "amen" chorus time after time. Over certain $$ figures well into the thousands collectors and dealers need to be very careful, but grading is still and art not a science.

[bochiman]

So, just more stirring of the pot by you, by bringing something posted elsewhere, over here, just to rile people up.

 

If you have an issue with it, why don't you speak to him?

 

Oh, that's right...you probably don't have an issue with it....heck, you may even agree (or you may disagree), but at the end of the day, you are bored and just want to start arguments and get people over here to get their pitchforks at the ready.

 

Seen it multiple times by you. It's old and tired by now.

[jom]

I don't think Ankur was suggesting people should "lack faith in NGC". I think he was suggesting why that bust half went for a LOT more after it was put into a PCGS holder at the same (or was it higher?) grade.

 

I do know he'll buy NGC coins if they are CAC'd...he's said so before.

 

As to the PCGS "gang": that thread and another about the big jump in some CBH prices after crossing over to PCGS just shows that NGC isn't as "liberal" with their grading as some think....but that's a different discussion.

 

jom

[Tyler N.]

Hard Times, who cares? I really like the coins you post here, but you're a drama queen.

 

"Best, TN"

[coinman_23885]

Ankur Wat?

 

 

I like your play on words...

[brg5658]

The word "faith" is the perfect word for AnkurJ to use, as by definition, faith is a belief that is not supported or founded by evidence. It is clearly the way that AnkurJ collects, by faith alone -- almost blind faith -- in blue labels and little green sparkly stickers.

 

Would we expect any more of an insightful response from the guy who started the "kool kids club CAC forum"...the only forum of its kind that is locked to only members?

 

Those kinds of posts are pretty much par for the course for him, as he doesn't really have any other insight or knowledge of numismatics beyond that -- at least I haven't seen it in the 4 years I have been here (or there).

 

I see Bochi came out of the woodwork to defend his groupie? Some things never change.

 

Carry on...

[coinman_23885]

I'm going to anger a lot of people when I say this, but I am going to say it anyway. I think you are being far too hard on Ankur and I don't think Ankur meant anything negative about NGC. I like NGC very much and think it is an excellent service. With that said, the market on Capped Bust Half Dollars absolutely seems to favor PCGS, and in fairness, in the XF to lower mint state grades, there are qualitative differences in the way that each company assesses luster and wear (in the circulated range) in many instances. Now, I don't think that plastic and stickers are the only thing at play here. Bidding wars happen. But denying that plastic and stickers can make a difference in the market is a bit naive. I don't like it anymore than you do - I collect coins and not the plastic. But I cannot blame a fellow collector for making a fairly accurate observation about larger market preferences.

[brg5658]

I'm going to anger a lot of people when I say this, but I am going to say it anyway. I think you are being far too hard on Ankur and I don't think Ankur meant anything negative about NGC. I like NGC very much and think it is an excellent service. With that said, the market on Capped Bust Half Dollars absolutely seems to favor PCGS, and in fairness, in the XF to lower mint state grades, there are qualitative differences in the way that each company assesses luster and wear (in the circulated range). Now, I don't I don't think that plastic and stickers are the only thing at play here. Bidding wars happen. But denying that plastic and stickers can make a difference in the market is a bit naive. I don't like it anymore than you do - I collect coins and not the plastic. But I cannot blame a fellow collector for making a fairly accurate observation about larger market preferences.

 

Yes, and the fact that this coin not only crossed to a PCGS MS64 holder (same grade that it was in by NGC), and stickered in the PCGS holder (and almost assuredly did not sticker in the NGC holder as someone else pointed out on the PCGS boards -- as almost all big auction pieces are run through the CAC gauntlet). Furthermore, the coin was purchased by Legend, further upgraded to an MS64+ PCGS holder, and sold at a tidy profit from even the Heritage 2nd auction.

 

How do those facts support a market that prefers PCGS? Enlighten me...

[coinman_23885]

Yes, and the fact that this coin not only crossed to a PCGS MS64 holder (same grade that it was in by NGC), and stickered in the PCGS holder (and almost assuredly did not sticker in the NGC holder as someone else pointed out on the PCGS boards -- as almost all big auction pieces are run through the CAC gauntlet). Furthermore, the coin was purchased by Legend, further upgraded to an MS64+ PCGS holder, and sold at a tidy profit from even the Heritage 2nd auction.

 

How do those facts support a market that prefers PCGS? Enlighten me...

 

I am a bit confused. The first part of your post mentions that the coin crossed to PCGS at grade, which would seem to challenge observations concerning grading. Nothing you mentioned speaks about larger market perception. If you track the prices realized in the series, in many instances PCGS coins command larger premiums than do NGC coins of the same grade level. There are obvious exceptions, but there are more than enough examples to support a trend. You can ask any collector who is active in the series, and I think the majority of them would back me up. And for the record, those two auction records (the five figure difference between NGC and PCGS) would comport with my comments about market perception (with CAC as a conflating variable), which is what Ankur's point really is. Either way, the PCGS-CAC combo outsold the unstickered NGC coin by an enormous margin. This happens more often that you (and I) would like to think.

[Kurtdog]

But I cannot blame a fellow collector for making a fairly accurate observation about larger market preferences.

The one that does the larger marketing is the one that has the larger market preference. Now there's a coincidence.

[brg5658]

Yes, and the fact that this coin not only crossed to a PCGS MS64 holder (same grade that it was in by NGC), and stickered in the PCGS holder (and almost assuredly did not sticker in the NGC holder as someone else pointed out on the PCGS boards -- as almost all big auction pieces are run through the CAC gauntlet). Furthermore, the coin was purchased by Legend, further upgraded to an MS64+ PCGS holder, and sold at a tidy profit from even the Heritage 2nd auction.

 

How do those facts support a market that prefers PCGS? Enlighten me...

 

I am a bit confused. The first part of your post mentions that the coin crossed to PCGS at grade, which would seem to challenge observations concerning grading. Nothing you mentioned speaks about larger market perception. If you track the prices realized in the series, in many instances PCGS coins command larger premiums than do NGC coins of the same grade level. There are obvious exceptions, but there are more than enough examples to support a trend. You can ask any collector who is active in the series, and I think the majority of them would back me up. And for the record, those two auction records (the five figure difference between NGC and PCGS) would comport with my comments about market perception (with CAC as a conflating variable), which is what Ankur's point really is. Either way, the PCGS-CAC combo outsold the unstickered NGC coin by an enormous margin. This happens more often that you (and I) would like to think.

 

Kenny, let me be more clear. My point was that the perception doesn't seem to be a reality. I'm not arguing whether price differences happen -- they clearly do. I'm stating that they are irrational and emotional perceptions in difference, not actual true differences. IMO, all the more reason for collectors to buy nice NGC coins. I'll leave the PCGS coins and resubmissions and pulling of the wool over the eyes to "reputable" dealers like Legend.

[coinman_23885]

 

Kenny, let me be more clear. My point was that the perception doesn't seem to be a reality. I'm not arguing whether price differences happen -- they clearly do. I'm stating that they are irrational and emotional perceptions in difference, not actual true differences. IMO, all the more reason for collectors to buy nice NGC coins. I'll leave the PCGS coins and resubmissions and pulling of the wool over the eyes to "reputable" dealers like Legend.

 

Then I am inclined to agree with you with regards to this coin (and many but not all others). The same coin should not sell for five figures more because of a plastic holder and sticker. The quality of the coin should be the controlling/important consideration. To be honest, it makes me worry about the long term stability of the coin market.

[dimefreak]

I'm going to tell you my thoughts

 

First Ankur is 100% right. Its easy to take it as a slap in the face. Do I feel he might be taking a shot at NGC??? Likely! But his statement as a whole is correct.

 

Secondly, there are some wise folks here! People here can that can grade well. Know how to make money! Spot the and spot the good stuff! Use this NGC prejudice to your advantage. Buy nice NGC coins for far less than you would pay for it in a PCGS holder.Let me give you a recent real world example. Had burgers for dinner and my wife had some sweet relish on the table. When I informed her it was the best relish I've had she informed me it was the store brand. Nice cheap relish that tasted amazing. At this point and time I can't see NGC taking the drivers seat in the coin market. However, I do believe one day when certain buisness are gone , NGC will get the recognition that they deserve and all of a sudden NGC holders will be sought out! Just my two cents

 

 

[MJ]

NGC and PCGS have different standards for different series. Figure that out and you've solved a big part of the puzzle.

 

For this moment in time for the series I collect the following is true:

 

Most desirable combination

 

1) PCGS with CAC

 

2) PCGS with out sticker or NGC with sticker

 

4) NGC without sticker distant 4th

 

I have all four groups in my collection with the majority in group 1.

 

There are arbitrage opportunities within these food groups.

 

I like eye appeal over technical grade but if I can get both then...... Boom. I pay accordingly.

 

MJ

[jom]

How do those facts support a market that prefers PCGS? Enlighten me...

 

The fact the coin went for, what, 5X from the NGC coin is all you really need to know there....

 

Kenny, let me be more clear. My point was that the perception doesn't seem to be a reality. I'm not arguing whether price differences happen -- they clearly do. I'm stating that they are irrational and emotional perceptions in difference, not actual true differences. IMO, all the more reason for collectors to buy nice NGC coins. I'll leave the PCGS coins and resubmissions and pulling of the wool over the eyes to "reputable" dealers like Legend.

 

All that you say it true but so was Ankur's statement. As I said above in my post Ankur was simply stating what the market perceives not what it SHOULD perceive. And...as far as I can tell that is a REALITY in the market. However, that shouldn't stop anyone who knows what they are doing from buying NGC graded coins....

 

However, I should point out that the longer this perception continues many of these correctly graded NGC coins (such as this CBH) will get cracked out and sent to PCGS leaving over-graded NGC coins in the marketplace. This, of course, will exacerbate the perception even more....a snow ball rolling down the hill so to speak.

 

BTW, the "emotional perceptions" you speak of are really only a result that many of the participants in the coin market simply do not know how to grade. As much as the TPGs have helped the coin market over the years one of the downsides is the dumbing down of collectors/dealers ability to grade a coin themselves....unfortunately.

 

@Kenny: Yes, IMO, you should be worried about the long-term viability of the coin market....

 

jom

[BROADSTRUCK]

I liked the coin ATS as a AU64 and with a bump for eye appeal could see it in a AU58+ holder...

 

It's now PCGS MS64+ CAC so

[19Lyds]

From ATS:

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=935981

 

Ankur's post in quotes:

 

"Lack of faith in NGC"

 

Who be that Ankur? Eric Newman? No, and 80% of the NGC grades for his coins that were eligible CACed and collectively sold for bazillions of dinero.

 

Don Patrick? No, he exclusively used NGC for his collection and most that were eligible CACed and collectively sold for $26 million. Two legendary collections.

 

Smithsonian Institution? No, they exclusively used NGC.

 

So please elaborate who does not have faith in NGC Ankur.

 

Best, HT

Obviously he is referring to the "second" buyer/bidders since the first go around didn't produce anywhere near the final price of the second go around.

 

Somebody have an Axe to grind or what?

[bochiman]

 

I see Bochi came out of the woodwork to defend his groupie? Some things never change.

 

Carry on...

 

 

Yeah, sure. Ok troll. Keep believing what you want. You make up most of it anyway to support whatever you want to whine about/attack.

 

If you opened your eyes, you would see truth that is there. Keep the blinders on so your attacks make you feel better.

[Hard Times]

Bochi et al., All I am asking is that if someone makes a blanket statement like that, I would like to have them elaborate. Does Ankur mean himself, does he mean PCGS faithful (his term, faith) believe NGC is somehow inferior? It would be interesting for him to elaborate because all of the data out there puts the grading of these two companies to pretty much the same. On the grand scale, that is really what value is about, what is the quality of the coin, meaning how do you grade it. Given this topic ATS, I think it is important to discuss over here as well and ask Ankur what he means by a statement that could be considered damning towards our hosts. If you want to make it more than that, that is your problem. It would be nice for Ankur to come over here and candidly tell us what he means. Dats all I am sayin'

 

If people out there don't have 'faith', whatever that is defined as or meant, in NGC, then why is it that so many legendary collections are being graded by our hosts? Why is it that the Smithsonian, with perhaps one of the most valuable coin collections on the planet, chose NGC? Why is the ANA selecting NGC as their partner for grading? Why is it, so I hear(?), that Heritage has a financial stake in NGC? Faith? Why Bochi? Why?

 

I will explain my faith. It is in my grading skills and those I seek opinions from. The latter includes both NGC and PCGS, but also people like Jason Poe, Bill Jones, jom, Brandon and Larry, all of whom work hard on learning how to grade and have helped me out. So me, I laugh when the price of a coin in one holder is crazy different than the price of the same coin in another holder. I know better than to buy into marketing and think it is because buyers don't have much confidence in their own grading skills and instead put their faith into what someone told them to put it in.

 

Best, HT

[BillJones]

There is a group of collectors and dealers who give their full support to PCGS and have mostly bad things to say about every other grading service. Within this group there are people who advocate that the PCGS - CAC combination is superior to all other certification combinations. These people are entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that collectors and dealers are better off when there more viable grading services, not less.

 

I only get upset with these people when they attack me because I won't get on the "CAC is perfect" bandwagon. I can predict that I will be immediately attacked for having just written that statement. Go ahead, make my day! Your attacks are tired and redundant.

 

I think that we should consider the source of these attacks on services other than PCGS - CAC. Quite often it self-serving because they have a financial stake in PCGS - CAC, either through a business marketing plan or a considerable investment in coins that have that certification.

 

Those of us who know how to grade coins and think for ourselves know the truth. There are many good coins in NGC holders. It's the coin not the holder that counts.

 

[RWB]

AU to MS64 --- are you sure that wasn't an 1804 dollar....they are magical.

[Hard Times]

There is a group of collectors and dealers who give their full support to PCGS and have mostly bad things to say about every other grading service. Within this group there are people who advocate that the PCGS - CAC combination is superior to all other certification combinations. These people are entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that collectors and dealers are better off when there more viable grading services, not less.

 

I only get upset with these people when they attack me because I won't get on the "CAC is perfect" bandwagon. I can predict that I will be immediately attacked for having just written that statement. Go ahead, make my day! Your attacks are tired and redundant.

 

I think that we should consider the source of these attacks on services other than PCGS - CAC. Quite often it self-serving because they have a financial stake in PCGS - CAC, either through a business marketing plan or a considerable investment in coins that have that certification.

 

Those of us who know how to grade coins and think for ourselves know the truth. There are many good coins in NGC holders. It's the coin not the holder that counts.

 

+1 (thumbs u

 

All I can say is I like all 3 NGC, PCGS, and CAC equally and appreciate what each in turn has done for numismatics. But like Bill says, knowing how to grade coins is what this is all about.

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

AU to MS64 --- are you sure that wasn't an 1804 dollar....they are magical.

 

[Raisethis2]

 

When Ankur (or anyone else) makes a statement like that it's like throwing meat to the wolves. There are just enough dummies (read Koolade drinkers) over there to forget about the intent of the thread and focus their attention on perceived differences between the services.

 

Each service does treat some coin series differently, that's a fact.

 

Knowing and exploiting those differences is a money maker for those who know what they're looking at.

 

Similarly, many of the loyal commenters that love to pile on are Dealers. If you saw that coin back in an NGC holder in their case do you think they would be willing to give "the NGC discount"? Pffffft.

 

It's entirely possible that the person laying out the big bucks recently for the coin may be the biggest knucklehead in the bunch. If he/she did their homework they should question how the coin got upgraded and stickered. Logic tells me that to offer up a way bigger money for the coin just because it went into a new stickered holder means NGC was stricter or, the coin is now over graded.

 

The coin didn't change. The process was manipulated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There is a group of collectors and dealers who give their full support to PCGS and have mostly bad things to say about every other grading service. Within this group there are people who advocate that the PCGS - CAC combination is superior to all other certification combinations. These people are entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that collectors and dealers are better off when there more viable grading services, not less.

 

I only get upset with these people when they attack me because I won't get on the "CAC is perfect" bandwagon. I can predict that I will be immediately attacked for having just written that statement. Go ahead, make my day! Your attacks are tired and redundant.

 

I think that we should consider the source of these attacks on services other than PCGS - CAC. Quite often it self-serving because they have a financial stake in PCGS - CAC, either through a business marketing plan or a considerable investment in coins that have that certification.

 

Those of us who know how to grade coins and think for ourselves know the truth. There are many good coins in NGC holders. It's the coin not the holder that counts.

 

After all the "CAC is perfect....no it is not" Thread not so long ago, did you absolutely have to use ".....CAC is perfect...." in the Post ?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

When Ankur (or anyone else) makes a statement like that it's like throwing meat to the wolves. There are just enough dummies (read Koolade drinkers) over there to forget about the intent of the thread and focus their attention on perceived differences between the services.

 

Each service does treat some coin series differently, that's a fact.

 

Knowing and exploiting those differences is a money maker for those who know what they're looking at.

 

Similarly, many of the loyal commenters that love to pile on are Dealers. If you saw that coin back in an NGC holder in their case do you think they would be willing to give "the NGC discount"? Pffffft.

 

It's entirely possible that the person laying out the big bucks recently for the coin may be the biggest knucklehead in the bunch. If he/she did their homework they should question how the coin got upgraded and stickered. Logic tells me that to offer up a way bigger money for the coin just because it went into a new stickered holder means NGC was stricter or, the coin is now over graded.

 

The coin didn't change. The process was manipulated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

64 to 64+ is sort of interesting. I guess the person that received the + was just a lucky average collector with a superior grading ability.

[GoldFinger1969]

There are a bunch of dealers and serious collectors who represent the PCGS "amen" chorus time after time. Over certain $$ figures well into the thousands collectors and dealers need to be very careful, but grading is still and art not a science.

I wonder......hypothetically....what would happen if NGC were to be much tougher on their grading (within reason, of course).....initially, they might LOSE both classic and modern coin business to PCGS...but eventually, down the road, an NGC rating would be at a premium to PCGS and it might help their overall business (at least with the savvy). NGC could find themselves then where PCGS is today, the one that -- at the margin -- some people just happen to prefer (myself, right now, I really don't have a preference).

 

No different than a business deciding to lose a bit of money in the short-term to gain market share and higher profits down the road.

 

Think about it......... (thumbs u