ICG grading of Morgans.....what is your opinion?

[nater222-migration]

I am considering buying a couple of coins graded by ICG. I am looking at pictures of these coins from a seller that I have bought raw coins from in the past and have been happy. He always will list cleaned coins as cleaned, AU is AU and his graded stuff is generally nice. He gets all of his coins graded by ICG. He uses the exact lighting and setting for each picture, which helps me compare previosly purchased raw coins up against his graded coins. I love the feedback from people here that obviously know way more than I do about coins, and figured I would get some advice before pulling the trigger.

 

The 78 7tf looks like its overgraded by a couple of points. The 78cc is clearly pl in comparison and looks like a 64 to me. Thanks in advance, Nate

[david3142]

I think ICG is usually decent. I own/have owned a few mid-grade Morgans and only one is generously graded. However, that one has a rainbow toned, clean obverse and a sub-par reverse (weakly struck and has some chatter).

 

It's certainly nice to have as far as peace of mind on an eBay purchase, but if you go to sell, know that many dealers do not like to buy anything other than NGC and PCGS. It may as well be raw to them.

[coinman_23885]

It truly depends on the holder generation, and you can see differences among the different owners/companies that really constitute ICG. Overall, I think ICG can be a tad loose.

 

The first coin looks okay at MS64, but I would need to see the coin in hand as well as the reverse. The coin looks like it is likely PL, but I would need to see it in hand.

 

The second coin has a lot of ticks and the luster could be better. If I had to guess blindly, I would have called it a MS63, but I might feel differently in hand.

 

There are a lot of ICG MS65 coins that look like MS64s. The ICG MS66 generic coins also tend to be really nice PCGS quality MS65 to MS65 plus coins, and I have had success having some of them going into MS65+ PCGS holders and selling them for a profit in the past (but I do cherry pick for grade, variety, issue, etc.).

[nater222-migration]

Thanks guys! I don't think I mentioned it, but the 7tf morgan is just there for photo comparison. I would most likely crack the 78cc out and re submit. Just trying to figure out if it would hold grade at NGC or the other guy. I know they are just pictures. Thanks for your time. Nate

Oh, and here is the reverse.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

What are you paying for the coins ?

[coinman_23885]

What are you paying for the coins ?

 

It depends on the quality of the coin, but it would need to be a level that I could make a decent profit off of at this point. I don't readily collect these in grades below MS66 for my personal collection except for select dates unless the coin has some unusually superb characteristic such as nice toning.

 

Edited: If you are asking for advice on the value of the piece, I would need better images.

[nater222-migration]

What are you paying for the coins ?

 

Mainly looking at the 78cc 64pl

Got a deal worked out for $900. If I say it's a go. Thanks for the feedback.

Nate

[coinman_23885]

It truly depends on the depth of the mirrors. For an average prooflike piece, $900 sounds a bit high to me. Coins have sold for less than that in PCGS and NGC holders, notably with several records in the $700-$830 range. You can probably due a lot better.

[nater222-migration]

It truly depends on the depth of the mirrors. For an average prooflike piece, $900 sounds a bit high to me. Coins have sold for less than that in PCGS and NGC holders, notably with several records in the $700-$830 range. You can probably due a lot better.

 

Thanks, coinman. I would rather be patient and find the right coin. Good advice as usual.

[GoldFinger1969]

What are you paying for the coins ?

Mainly looking at the 78cc 64pl Got a deal worked out for $900. If I say it's a go. Thanks for the feedback. Nate

 

I'm not an expert on Morgans, but from a quick glance at Ebay....it appears that $900 is in the ballpark, but that would be for a PCGS/NGC coin. I know you should buy the coin and not the TPG, but if you do want to sell it as-is (assuming you don't submit it to PCGS/NGC) it might sell at a discount.

 

Looks like your guy was trying to sell it on Ebay for $1,150 and got no takers. I see others with and without the DMPL status selling for a bit less than what he is asking you:

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=1878-CC+MS-64+PL&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

 

I don't see $900 as unfair, just not sure in the ICG holder if you are paying PCGS/NGC-prices for the coin and rating. Hopefully, some Morgan experts chime in.

 

Good Luck ! (thumbs u

[coinman_23885]

I'm not an expert on Morgans, but from a quick glance at Ebay....it appears that $900 is in the ballpark, but that would be for a PCGS/NGC coin....

I don't see $900 as unfair, just not sure in the ICG holder if you are paying PCGS/NGC-prices for the coin and rating.

 

Are you looking at asking prices or actual sales records?

 

And the same coin sold for $629.99 on eBay in November. That was the starting bid and only one bidder. That sounds more realistic for the coin, but I would be cautious about relying on it. If the seller wants NGC/PCGS money (and more than what many examples have recently sold for at Heritage and other auction houses), he should have much better photography.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1878-CC-ICG-MS64-PL-that-039-s-Proof-Like-folks-Great-mirrors-a-rare-condition-/121487155208?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item1c4932e008&nma=true&si=BxZ9G0UkfHIYR582n2QvJIHDZkQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[coinman_23885]

Also OP, there is no shortage of this date and mint mark in PL condition. Don't necessarily snap up the first coin you see. You can afford to be very choosy.

 

On another note, given the difference in price between MS63 and MS64 PL, you might be able to find a MS63+ coin for significantly less money for what might amount to a minor difference in quality. I generally agree with the advice that you should buy the best that you can afford, but the price difference/consideration should be in proportion to the coin's true quality.

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm not an expert on Morgans, but from a quick glance at Ebay....it appears that $900 is in the ballpark, but that would be for a PCGS/NGC coin....I don't see $900 as unfair, just not sure in the ICG holder if you are paying PCGS/NGC-prices for the coin and rating.

Are you looking at asking prices or actual sales records?

 

I just looked at a bunch of current asking prices, not just one. But you are right Coinman, recently completed actual sales are always a bit less.

 

And the same coin sold for $629.99 on eBay in November. That was the starting bid and only one bidder.

 

Agreed....I couldn't find that one. Here it is:

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=1878-CC%20MS-64%20PL&rt=nc&_pppn=r1

 

Same holder, same seller. So why he asked $500 more on Ebay a 2nd time and why he is asking almost $300 more from nater is questionable. Hey, I guess if you can get it, why not, right ?

 

Nater, $600 - $650 looks like a fair price for the coin since he sold one in that range a few months ago.

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

I just looked at a bunch of current asking prices, not just one.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but you cannot rely on asking prices on eBay at all. The prices are often inflated and very unrealistic. It is not unusual for sellers to want fair market value + eBay fees. What matters is what buyers have actually paid/are willing to pay.

 

Nater, $600 - $650 looks like a fair price for the coin since he sold one in that range a few months ago.

 

Actually, I am quite curious why the coin came back. Perhaps the marks on the cheek really are more significant than I interpreted them to be. Maybe the coin is overgraded and was returned. That's the type of thing I would want to know. If you are dealing with the same seller where you can interpret his/her photography well that's one thing, but for a one time purchase with bad photos in a second tier slab, I would think twice about buying it at all.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

If collectors would buy the coin not the holder they would have better experiences. At ICG you have Randy Campbell and Skip Fazzari, a grading service is no better than its graders and these guys know grading especially Morgans as well as anyone. At $10 a coin often with free attribution they are very budget and collector friendly, but the holder is inferior to the high tech alternatives.

[WoodenJefferson]

This will solve any doubt...

 

Just buy coins already graded by NGC

[coinman_23885]

If collectors would buy the coin not the holder they would have better experiences.

 

If he can get a comparable quality or superior coin for cheaper, why shouldn't he? As I said, the Heritage auction records for PCGS and NGC coins show a number of sales records for coins that are cheaper (with a couple higher). It depends on the quality of the mirrors. You cannot, however, tell any of this based on the images in the original post. And when we cannot fairly assess a coin, all we have is intuition and trends based on our experiences. That does rely on the plastic to some degree.

 

And the point about buying the coin and not the holder would be more applicable if we had better images. When our options are to purchase coins of comparable quality in ICG vs. PCGS/NGC holders for the same price, the latter offer better liquidity and resale potential when it comes time to sell and upgrade. This is not to say to ignore all ICG coins. To be sure, there an excellent coins in ICG plastic and I cherry pick them whenever opportunity presents itself. If this coin had phenomenal eye appeal or was out of the ordinary, the responses would have looked different. It looks at best like any generic 78-CC with PL surfaces to me. The OP could find another one with minimal effort.

 

At ICG you have Randy Campbell and Skip Fazzari, a grading service is no better than its graders and these guys know grading especially Morgans as well as anyone.

 

A couple points here:

 

1 - To my knowledge these graders aren't involved in the certification of every coin and my comments were meant to apply to ICG, not the particular graders in question.

 

2 - It doesn't matter how great a grader you are if you are limited by institutional standards. I think NCI had good graders in the 1980s/early 1990s, but the institutional standards were admittedly looser than PCGS/NGC standards of the day.

[GoldFinger1969]

If collectors would buy the coin not the holder they would have better experiences. At ICG you have Randy Campbell and Skip Fazzari, a grading service is no better than its graders and these guys know grading especially Morgans as well as anyone. At $10 a coin often with free attribution they are very budget and collector friendly, but the holder is inferior to the high tech alternatives.

 

Good advice....and I agree, not having known that about who or what ICG is, that information is critical.

 

The only thing we are left with is the fact that most potential future buyers WILL most likely want PCGS or NGC.

 

Who knows, maybe we'll see TPG consolidation in the future...might make things easier.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I would qualify my comments on ICG that they are a good economy option under $500 in terms of coin value. The coin still needs to be rigorously scrutinized as to hidden issues. The ICG business model that I like is along the lines of numismatics as a hobby where apples are compared with apples in the grading curve and judgments are accurately made. They make more mistakes than the others. But if you need a coin graded where grading and attribution would cost $40 and you can get it done at ICG who would quibble with that if they are on the mark? As you go up the value scale over $500 and even $1000 in coin value, they are too far off in some cases to merit spending that magnitude of $$ on their certified coins. Always get several sets of eyes to check out a coin where you are going to spend real money. I have seen lots of raw coin sellers putting inaccurate grades on their coins, at least with the four main grading services you have an outside and hopefully objective grade opinion.

[e1cnr]

I feel they have more variance in their grades than the other TPGs. Ownership changes over the years has not helped.

[coinman_23885]

I would qualify my comments on ICG that they are a good economy option under $500 in terms of coin value. The coin still needs to be rigorously scrutinized as to hidden issues. The ICG business model that I like is along the lines of numismatics as a hobby where apples are compared with apples in the grading curve and judgments are accurately made. They make more mistakes than the others. But if you need a coin graded where grading and attribution would cost $40 and you can get it done at ICG who would quibble with that if they are on the mark? As you go up the value scale over $500 and even $1000 in coin value, they are too far off in some cases to merit spending that magnitude of $$ on their certified coins. Always get several sets of eyes to check out a coin where you are going to spend real money. I have seen lots of raw coin sellers putting inaccurate grades on their coins, at least with the four main grading services you have an outside and hopefully objective grade opinion.

 

The only time I can really think of where someone would "need" a coin graded and attributed at that level would be when it comes time to sell. And with many dealers treating ICG coins as raw, I am not sure it is worth it. Also, with regards to variety, what series did you have in mind?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Morgans and Peace dollars are probably their forte. If you have a lot of dollars in the $60-$300 value range, the cheap grading option makes sense; but not when you have to pay $40 for grading and attribution.

[World Colonial]

I don't think I would buy this coin in an ICG holder without looking at it first in person unless I considered the seller reliable, but I live in the metro ATL area and don't know the location of the OP. The coin is common and it should be easy to find many of them. Of course, I p[resume it has a return privilege but I would not want to be bothered with that. This coin is graded but sellers more often than not misrepresent coins through silence and omission.

[coinman_23885]

Morgans and Peace dollars are probably their forte. If you have a lot of dollars in the $60-$300 value range, the cheap grading option makes sense; but not when you have to pay $40 for grading and attribution.

 

In most instances, I would not pay the grading service to attribute the piece for me; thus, I wouldn't actually be paying $40 except in very rare instances. Instead, I would have it slabbed under the economy tier at either PCGS or NGC and then use this service:

 

http://varslab.com/

 

VAM Seal is run by John Baumgart (MessyDesk here). He either is or was president of the Silver Dollar Society, and he has a good following. Those that collect by VAMs (read as those who would more likely care about the attribution), will or should be familiar with him. And his label is actually quite informative and fits on the reverse of a TPG slab. The attribution fee is a mere $6.

 

He also has a service for RAW coins and will put them in a Coin World like type slab. For coins worth as little as $60, it makes much more sense to me. Unless there was some special sentimental reason for slabbing it, coins worth that little would go directly into an air tight.

 

P.S. If you deal in bulk with coins in that range, you might save a good deal by sending in several pieces at once and enjoying bulk rates at the TPGs.