Is Shill Bidding Rampant on EBAY?

[jackson64]

Recently I have noticed several items I bid on getting repeated, small increment bids toward an auction end by bidders who::::

 

A) have very low feedback or ebay history

B) have inordinate amounts of bids with a single seller's items only

C) multiple ( sometimes even more) bid retractions in relation to items purchased and paid for

 

Most often it is a very large dealer with thousands of sales/feedbacks ( and I suspect multiple accounts)...

 

Here is a link to a recent cheap panda coin I had a bid on--but then about an hour or so before the end--the "alleged" shilling began...What do you think? An invented account to bump up bids/profits?

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=201263206805&aid=8***l&eu=&bidtid=1171983075010&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=201263206805&aid=8***l&eu=&bidtid=1171983075010&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

[Kurtdog]

Recently I have noticed several items I bid on getting repeated, small increment bids toward an auction end by bidders who::::

 

A) have very low feedback or ebay history

B) have inordinate amounts of bids with a single seller's items only

C) multiple ( sometimes even more) bid retractions in relation to items purchased and paid for

 

Most often it is a very large dealer with thousands of sales/feedbacks ( and I suspect multiple accounts)...

 

Here is a link to a recent cheap panda coin I had a bid on--but then about an hour or so before the end--the "alleged" shilling began...What do you think? An invented account to bump up bids/profits?

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=201263206805&aid=8***l&eu=&bidtid=1171983075010&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=201263206805&aid=8***l&eu=&bidtid=1171983075010&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

Ah, I don't know. It could be. I can tell you this, I'd be surprised if it weren't common on many auction sites. It's just it's so easy to do and hard to prove.

[cpm9ball]

Recently I have noticed several items I bid on getting repeated, small increment bids toward an auction end by bidders who::::

 

A) have very low feedback or ebay history

B) have inordinate amounts of bids with a single seller's items only

C) multiple ( sometimes even more) bid retractions in relation to items purchased and paid for

 

Most often it is a very large dealer with thousands of sales/feedbacks ( and I suspect multiple accounts)...

 

Here is a link to a recent cheap panda coin I had a bid on--but then about an hour or so before the end--the "alleged" shilling began...What do you think? An invented account to bump up bids/profits?

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=201263206805&aid=8***l&eu=&bidtid=1171983075010&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=201263206805&aid=8***l&eu=&bidtid=1171983075010&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

Ah, I don't know. It could be. I can tell you this, I'd be surprised if it weren't common on many auction sites. It's just it's so easy to do and hard to prove.

 

I agree, and that is why I don't like the SleazeBay policy of anonymous bidding. If they have a registered name, use it!

 

Chris

[jackson64]

yeah..just gotta live with it I guess...here is a coin I bid on from a seller with over 100,000 sales. I'm guessing he probably has a dozen or so accounts that he uses to shill bid--and even shill bid for his own other fake/shill users to lend them credence. Notice the 30+ bid retractions in the past few months...bid multiple times on an item until you inflate the price and then retract the last bid that puts him in the winning bidder position....

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=361128099402&aid=0***h&eu=&bidtid=601582101023&view=BUYER&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_Buyer_ViewLink

[WoodenJefferson]

If you don't think that shill bidding is not going on, you are naive about the auction business.

[wdrob]

 

Apparently eBay has (for how long I do not know) the option of making your feedback comments 'Private'.

 

Someone just bid on an item I have up and I noticed it said Private for the feedback. When I went to the feedback page it did show the score and number of transaction but stated that this user has chosen to make feedback comments private.

 

So you can see the score, the positives and negatives, but you can't see any transactions.

 

 

[BillJones]

Let me put it to you this way. When I was an active dealer, I had other dealers, who offered coins on eBay, ask me to bid on items they were offering. "You don't have to buy them," they told me, "just place the bids."

 

I always refused to do it because I thought that it was unethical, but how do you, as a bidder, prove that it has not happened? You can't.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I have had numerous ebay sellers tell me that shill bidding is the only way to get top dollar. One reason that no reserve auctions are losers in 95% of cases. There is no way to compete against aggressive shill sellers and auction theater. One reason I mostly only do fixed price listings with make offer to seller, otherwise my mainly certified stuff would sell below cost if I did honest auctions on ebay. And they have no interest in enforcing the rules except with sloppy shillers; they can easily identify ISPs but if you have others bidding on your stuff via shill, you have plausible deniability. I am waiting for the day when some US attorney or state AG decides to build their record by convicting ebay for enabling scams.

 

However major auction houses are free to bid on their items, and most all do, I don't see a conflict of interest there since they are willing to buy at those bid levels instead of cancelling out the shilled auctions.

[AHFreak]

I have had numerous ebay sellers tell me that shill bidding is the only way to get top dollar. One reason that no reserve auctions are losers in 95% of cases. There is no way to compete against aggressive shill sellers and auction theater. One reason I mostly only do fixed price listings with make offer to seller, otherwise my mainly certified stuff would sell below cost if I did honest auctions on ebay. And they have no interest in enforcing the rules except with sloppy shillers; they can easily identify ISPs but if you have others bidding on your stuff via shill, you have plausible deniability. I am waiting for the day when some US attorney or state AG decides to build their record by convicting ebay for enabling scams.

 

However major auction houses are free to bid on their items, and most all do, I don't see a conflict of interest there since they are willing to buy at those bid levels instead of cancelling out the shilled auctions.

 

Just to give you another side of the story here..

 

I am a coin seller on Ebay who does several zero start, no reserve auctions weekly. I can honestly tell you that I HAVE NEVER "SHILL BID" OR TRIED TO GET SOMEONE TO SHILL BID MY STUFF UP.... NEVER.

 

I also can tell you that for me, when I do no reserve zero start auctions, my results are pretty much opposite to your 95% of listings selling at for below "value" or whatever. I would easily say that 95% of the stuff I sale via no reserve auctions sells for above value, in many cases waaayy above value. and frequently, I have coins that will sale for 2 or 3 X's what you can buy them for elsewhere on Ebay as buy it now's..... Why? Well, I have my own personal opinions on that, but I guarantee it has nothing to do with anything like shill bidding, or having to be shady.

 

I constantly hear people blasting Ebay for all the terrible things about it... I truly don't get it.

 

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I have had numerous ebay sellers tell me that shill bidding is the only way to get top dollar. One reason that no reserve auctions are losers in 95% of cases. There is no way to compete against aggressive shill sellers and auction theater. One reason I mostly only do fixed price listings with make offer to seller, otherwise my mainly certified stuff would sell below cost if I did honest auctions on ebay. And they have no interest in enforcing the rules except with sloppy shillers; they can easily identify ISPs but if you have others bidding on your stuff via shill, you have plausible deniability. I am waiting for the day when some US attorney or state AG decides to build their record by convicting ebay for enabling scams.

 

However major auction houses are free to bid on their items, and most all do, I don't see a conflict of interest there since they are willing to buy at those bid levels instead of cancelling out the shilled auctions.

 

Just to give you another side of the story here..

 

I am a coin seller on Ebay who does several zero start, no reserve auctions weekly. I can honestly tell you that I HAVE NEVER "SHILL BID" OR TRIED TO GET SOMEONE TO SHILL BID MY STUFF UP.... NEVER.

 

I also can tell you that for me, when I do no reserve zero start auctions, my results are pretty much opposite to your 95% of listings selling at for below "value" or whatever. I would easily say that 95% of the stuff I sale via no reserve auctions sells for above value, in many cases waaayy above value. and frequently, I have coins that will sale for 2 or 3 X's what you can buy them for elsewhere on Ebay as buy it now's..... Why? Well, I have my own personal opinions on that, but I guarantee it has nothing to do with anything like shill bidding, or having to be shady.

 

I constantly hear people blasting Ebay for all the terrible things about it... I truly don't get it.

 

 

 

I'm a comic book guy and we have the same problems and discussions about shill bidding.

To your last point, that you do not shill. Have you ever considered that, unknown to you, someone else may be bidding up your item, someone you don't know. Why ? For the ol' pump and dump scenario. If they are holding multiples of the same item you are selling their goal is inflate the price.

[mtnstyne]

I have been asked to shill bid, not in the coin category but yes it is rampant.

[Raisethis2]

Anytime a bidder has more than say 10% of his bids with just one Seller, that's a red flag that's too obvious to ignore. If you bid on an item and your bid is covered up that should be the first thing you check.

 

I too sell coins on E-Bay but I generally start auctions at a fair starting price above the amount I have into it, and let the auction go from there. This results in "no sale" listings at times but I'm ok with that.

 

I'm not going to give my coins away and I'm not going to cheat to make a few dollars more. Many of those larger sellers have numerous bidders that police their listings and bid each other up.

 

 

 

 

[Matt_dac]

I stopped bidding on Ebay items years ago. The few bucks I might save if I am a lucky high bidder is not worth the wait for the auction time, the software or other means that allows people to swoop in at the last second, etc. I only ever 'Buy It Now w/Best Offer' or 'Buy It Now' if the price is close. The shill bidding is another reason that validates my preference

 

I still love Ebay as a resource though - there is simply no other service I have found with the same quantity of coins (or anything else).

[Dcoin]

As far as the idea behind small incremental bids, this could be a legititamate although dirty bidding strategy.

 

Let's say I'm winning at 10$. If I raise my max bid to 10.05, it will show as another bid. If I do this over and over again you can post several dozen bids, without ever raising the price. The idea is that you will scare away other bidders, if it shows there are 30 "bids" on the auction.

[James_OldeTowne]

Is Shill Bidding Rampant on EBAY?

Yes, it is.

[delta]

Yes, maybe the multiple bid strategy you describe is sometimes tried by inexperienced bidders in the false hope it will scare others away. If that were the intent, it's usually counterproductive, because multiple bids attract extra attention to an item, and are likely to increase competitive bidding, and encourage competing bids to be increased.

 

I'd describe it not as a dirty strategy, but as self-defeating.

 

But almost all the time we observe that type of behavior, it's not a genuine attempt to win, it is shilling.

 

 

 

As far as the idea behind small incremental bids, this could be a legititamate although dirty bidding strategy.

 

Let's say I'm winning at 10$. If I raise my max bid to 10.05, it will show as another bid. If I do this over and over again you can post several dozen bids, without ever raising the price. The idea is that you will scare away other bidders, if it shows there are 30 "bids" on the auction.

[wdrob]

I will preface this by stating that I truly don't understand this system fully so if my perception is way off base - go easy on me. I am not trying to stir any pots.

 

I am curious as to why everyone seems to see a difference in shill bidding on eBay and a consignor bidding on his/her own item at auction at a house such as Heritage Auctions, Meecham Auto Auctions, etc...?

 

The way I understand it at Heritage is that, as a consignor, if you do not place a reserve on any item being auctioned, you are allowed to bid on that item if you are not willing to let it go at that price.

 

The way I read it, at Heritage, is that it is legal and you will be not only responsible for the Buyer and Consignor fees, but a possibly Reserve Premium as well. I gathered that perception from the website and the following:

 

No Reserve: This lot is being sold without a consignor reserve. (Note: By law, consignors may still bid under certain conditions, but they are responsible for paying the full Buyer's Premium and Seller's Commission if they do.)

 

Since eBay does not allow it's sellers to bid on their own consignments, even though it is apparently "by law" a legal act according to Heritage, I seem to be missing the difference here.

 

Not just Heritage either. I have always been curious as to how it is 'OK' when I watch those Meecham Auto Auctions and the seller bids the high bid and pays the associated fees because they are not willing to let it go for that amount being the current high bid.

 

Am I misunderstanding how Heritage works?

 

*****EDIT****

 

Well after a bit of studying it would seem that Heritage actually outlines the manner in which you can "shill" bid. I don't even think eBay does that.

 

15. Auctioneer reserves the right to refuse to honor any bid or to limit the amount of any bid, in its sole discretion. A bid is considered not made in “Good Faith” when made by an insolvent or irresponsible person, a person under the age of eighteen, or is not supported by satisfactory credit, collectibles references, or otherwise. Regardless of the disclosure of his identity, any bid by a consignor or his agent on a lot consigned by him is deemed to be made in “Good Faith.” Any person apparently appearing on the OFAC list is not eligible to bid.

 

 

OFAC = Office of Foriegn Asset Control (U.S. Government)

 

 

Terms and Conditions of Auction

 

 

Interesting .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Teletrade used to have that rule, that you could bid on your own items but would be responsible for both buyer and seller cost if someone did not overbid. If ebay required costs associated with canceled auctions except for good reason, that might counter the shill activity.

[wdrob]

 

Teletrade used to have that rule, that you could bid on your own items but would be responsible for both buyer and seller cost if someone did not overbid. If ebay required costs associated with canceled auctions except for good reason, that might counter the shill activity.

 

They do. If you have an auction going and cancel it at any time after a bid has been received, you are charged the final value fee just as if it had sold after running its course.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Teletrade used to have that rule, that you could bid on your own items but would be responsible for both buyer and seller cost if someone did not overbid. If ebay required costs associated with canceled auctions except for good reason, that might counter the shill activity.

 

They do. If you have an auction going and cancel it at any time after a bid has been received, you are charged the final value fee just as if it had sold after running it's course.

 

 

That change was an improvement. However, a seller can use shills to bid up items. And if a shill ends up winning something, he and the seller can cancel the transaction, with (as far as I know) no cost/penalty to the seller.