Grading Peace Dollars

[Hack]

Hello,

 

I am new to collecting and submitting coins to NGC for grading. I am having a difficult time telling the difference of a AU 58 and a MS Peace dollar. I recently received back a 1927 and a 1935 S graded AU 58 that I can not find any indication of circulation when compared to a MS coin. One of the coins has low luster and the other has a soft strike. It seems that the coins are getting down graded as circulated because of luster and strike. If anyone has any tips on how to tell a AU 58 Peace dollar, I could use some help.

 

Thanks,

 

Hack

[RWB]

Tilt the coin and look for incomplete or irregular luster. If the coins are in plastic slabs it can be difficult to see all the surface detail because the plastic and internal refraction can interfere.

 

The major authentication and grading companies seem to be more strict with Peace dollars than with Morgan dollars, but that's a question for the NGC mavens.

 

 

[TonerGuy]

Ive also noticed that NGC Peace $ grading has tighten recently. Not in the MS to AU manner but coins that I thought would grade 64 are now 63 and 63 is now 62. Not much help for you but it might just be a tightening across the board.

[Afterword]

Post some images of the coins in question.

[Afterword]

"The major authentication and grading companies seem to be more strict with Peace dollars than with Morgan dollars...."

 

 

 

 

I hope it stays that way.

[orifdoc]

Distinguishing the difference between an AU58 from an MS63 Peace dollar is one of the most difficult (if not the most difficult) part of grading this series. I've received more than a few AU58 grades myself.

 

There are a couple of little tricks that might help. Get comfortable seeing the texture of the surface of Peace dollars. Some are very granular like late-die-state 1924 coins. Others are a little smoother like most 1921 coins and early die state issues. Even on these you should be able to see what looks like minute crystal grains or a surface that is "sandy" under a loupe. Once you can see this, look to see if this is absent on the high points like the bottom part of the neck as it approaches the guillotine mark or the center of the cheek. If this is missing, the coin likely circulated enough to wear off some of the metal in these areas.

 

Luster won't shimmer across these areas the same way it will appear in other parts of the coin. Sometimes the TPG's will be forgiving of a slight amount of high-point rub, but you really shouldn't see any in higher grades (MS65 and up). Another good place to look is the point of the eagle's shoulder and the small ridges of the rock the eagle is standing on. In Miller's book he talks about graying of the fields. If you can see this, it's a slider. Sometimes random light bagmarks will affect only high points too - these scuffs aren't necessarily wear so much as marks that will lower the surface preservation component of the final grade.

 

Don't be fooled by incomplete strike. Slight planchet irregularities (random faint lines) can show through in these areas. If the die doesn't fully impact the metal in this area it can't impart the usual "texture" or flowlines to the planchet. This is most evident on 1921 and most of the San Fransisco issues, especially pre-1926. The usual places to look for this are in Liberty's hair, especially over the ear and in the eagle's feathers, just above the leg.

 

On occasion you'll see coins that appear to have OK luster but a bright overall sheen. Some of these are quite smooth under a loupe and show evidence of light polishing or cleaning. The difference between market acceptable and "no-grade" is sometimes slight, but on high-dollar coins, the TPGs will usually err on the side of caution.

 

If you look at a few Peace dollars you'll find one or two that show areas where the die has been touched-up or polished. Usually this is done to remove clash marks. Places to look include in front of the nose/forehead and around the eagle's neck. Some coins also show "feed-finger" rub that wore off the natural texture of the die around the date and below "IN GOD WE". These areas will show no texture and then you'll easily see the difference.

 

Once you've mastered all this you'll come up with the same answer as the TPGs on rare occasion.

 

Oh, and I agree about TPGs being tougher on Peace Dollars than Morgans. I've probably owned 100 Peace dollars for every Morgan. To me, most Morgans look over-graded.

[Zebo]

Nice informative post orifdoc.

[Hack]

Thanks RWB and Orifdoc for the grading tips. I was buying raw Peace dollars on Ebay and I will never buy another raw Peace dollar on Ebay again as these coins are very difficult to grade in hand and I have a lot to learn. I do own the Miller textbook on Morgans and Peace dollars and have read it a couple of times.

 

Afterword, I was trying to upload a photo of one of my AU 58's that totally fooled me as the coin looks better than most of my 61, 62, 63 MS peace dollars. I am having trouble getting the photo to post. I can get the photo from my computer to this site's file manager, but I can not get it out of the file manager onto the post page.

 

I have submitted 8 raw Peace dollars and all came back at a lower grade than I expected based on my slab MS Peace dollars.

 

I did submit a Morgan 1882 CC that I graded at MS61 and it came back at MS 63 and a 1884 CC that I graded at MS62 and it came back at MS 63. I was very happy with these grades.

[RWB]

Also - if the eagle is wearing boxer shorts, the coin is probably fake.

[Hack]

Here is an attempt to add a photo of a AU58 1934 Peace Dollar that was graded two weeks ago. The coin has luster much like a MS.

[Hack]

I got photo on the board. Please let me know what you think of the AU58 grade.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Here is an attempt to add a photo of a AU58 1934 Peace Dollar that was graded two weeks ago. The coin has luster much like a MS.

 

Looking at the images, these are the areas I would focus on as possible clues for the coin being AU:

 

On the obverse, Liberty's neck and lower jaw, as well as the hair beneath the letter T in LIBERTY

 

On the reverse, the lower right leg of the eagle, the area below its right claw and the eagle's neck.

 

Also, the luster appears to be subdued, but that, in itself, does not mean the coin isn't uncirculated.

 

Additionally, while I don't see this is the images, look for signs of brief circulation in the fields - impaired luster areas, etc.

 

The above are just some ideas - it's not always a no brainer call between AU58 and a low MS grade.

 

[thetracer]

Great thread here about Peace dollars. I just got one that I liked the look of, but don't know how to grade it.

 

In the pix, I had a hard time getting the light right with the usb microcam. So they look different but are the same coin with lighting to show each side the best I could get it.

 

AU or MS ?

[orifdoc]

Sorry thetracer, it's plenty hard enough to grade coins with the coin in-hand. With really, really excellent photography you can make a guess, but it's only a guess. There is no ability to twirl the coin under the light, evaluate luster, etc without physically holding the coin.

 

All I can tell from your photos is that it's a reasonably well-struck 1922 Peace dollar with a mintmark. There might possibly be some luster, but it's impossible to go beyond that. Your coin could be harshly cleaned, whizzed, counterfeit, or it could be a fantastic MS67 coin. It's just impossible to say more than that.

[messydesk]

For the 1934 coin you picture, put a white piece of paper on a table, stand up the slab on edge on the paper, and look down at the coin so that you can see how it reflects the paper back to you. If you see that the reflection is mostly white, but has a couple gray patches (edge of the bust, middle of the neck, middle of the cheek, central wing feathers), that is a sign that the luster has worn off, punching your ticket to AU.

[RWB]

Everyone should remember Lester Wornoff...the famous dealer in AU coins. One day I'll write his biography -- I'm sure all the facts are on the internet and Wikipediafile.

[Hack]

Messydesk, thanks for the tip. I looked at the coin as you noted and the only area that shows a slight greying is the center of the neck and it happens to be the area on the coins with the most contact marks.

 

I have some other raw Peace dollars that I suspected of being AU and the reflection and lose of luster is very clear that the coin was circulated. I still feel that the 1934 got a bad grade.

 

Fantastic information

[orifdoc]

Submit it ten times. If it's close, you'll probably get a mix of AU & MS grades.....

[RWB]

From the photo, your 1934 is AU...abrasion on the neck among other spots. Don't waste any more money -- there is no collection or economic advantage for you.

[orifdoc]

Mr B is right of course, and I agree about the abrasions around the neck area. There shouldn't be anything on a mint state coin that scatters light like that. I was only making the point (badly) that grading is more art than science.

 

I paid plenty of tuition to the TPGs at first, but I also had a handful of winners. This offset the expense enough that it wasn't too painful.

[erwindoc]

I had one I took to a local dealer once to help me determine au vs ms. I bet he looked at it several minutes before coming up with au, which was my assessment to. They can be tough!

 

[erwindoc]

RWB, Mark, & orifdoc are some good peace dollar pros too!