What are these lines caused by

[GBurger717-migration]

I am with the polish lines crowd. Exactly what it looks like to me.

[MarkFeld]

Beating a dead horse - I am convinced that we're seeing evidence of die polish. And sometimes die polish lines do, indeed, intersect or even appear on the devices. I believe I have seen the latter most frequently on proof Barber coinage.

[Raisethis2]

I agree they are die polish. I normally see this where the lines run generally in just one direction. The fact that they're all helter skelter but appear on several coin in the run suggests the die was polished in the machine and I can't think there's any other way they could have gotten there.

 

To Mark's point above, How could die polish lines continue onto the devices? I always thought the heat generated in the minting process was sufficient to "melt" away such lines?

 

I'm learning something new here. Are they as pronounced or barely there?

 

Thanks.

[MarkFeld]

I agree they are die polish. I normally see this where the lines run generally in just one direction. The fact that they're all helter skelter but appear on several coin in the run suggests the die was polished in the machine and I can't think there's any other way they could have gotten there.

 

To Mark's point above, How could die polish lines continue onto the devices? I always thought the heat generated in the minting process was sufficient to "melt" away such lines?

 

I'm learning something new here. Are they as pronounced or barely there?

 

Thanks.

 

In the large majority of cases, they were quite faint. And when I have seen them on the devices, I don't recall them also being present in areas leading up to the devices.

[messydesk]

1. Die polishing lines can cross.

2. The lines on the coin in the OP are die polishing lines.

3. The coin in the OP is cool.

[dadams]

I read Jason's (physics-fan3.14) reply to the guy over there on CT

 

1. Die polishing lines can cross.

2. The lines on the coin in the OP are die polishing lines.

3. The coin in the OP is cool.

4. Jason just sold another book (thumbs u

[robec1347]

I read Jason's (physics-fan3.14) reply to the guy over there on CT

 

1. Die polishing lines can cross.

2. The lines on the coin in the OP are die polishing lines.

3. The coin in the OP is cool.

4. Jason just sold another book (thumbs u

 

What does he know!

 

I just received mine yesterday.

[CaptHenway]

It is die polish. Probably caused by a press operator using an emery stick to clean the die while still in the press. Can easily run in multiple directions.

[RWB]

The fellow mentioning my book - FM2M - forgot about the use of emery sticks and cotton swabs for repair and retouching....they could produce the tiny scratches as observed. In repairing a die, the goal was to get it back into service - not to have a committee meeting about which repair technique to use.

 

Most of the linear abrasion was done by the coining room foreman or die setter in the coining room. More complicated or spot work was done by the die sinkers or an assistant engraver.

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

[coinman_23885]

That sounds reasonable Larry. Maybe that is the opposing argument at CT.

 

By the tenor of Doug's posts, I don't think that is the thrust of his argument at all.

[WoodenJefferson]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

[robec1347]

That sounds reasonable Larry. Maybe that is the opposing argument at CT.

 

By the tenor of Doug's posts, I don't think that is the thrust of his argument at all.

While he was very adamant die polish lines don't criss cross, he wasn't offering much in what he thought/knew they were.

[RWB]

Sometimes people get hold of a bit of good info, then extend it too far -- very easy to do.

[CaptHenway]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

[jpcienkus]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

 

The gentlemen in question is one of them. I think there are 4-5 moderators on the site. It's a good site and I learn a lot there as well.

[WoodenJefferson]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

 

The same one who told Lehigh96, a Jefferson nickel expert, that the tics on Jefferson's cheeks come from the coal type shovels used at the mint.

 

Lehigh96 was eventually banned from posting there anymore after supporting his argument against this preposterous comment.

 

You take it from there.

 

[robec1347]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

 

The same one who told Lehigh96, a Jefferson nickel expert, that the tics on Jefferson's cheeks come from the coal type shovels used at the mint.

 

Lehigh96 was eventually banned from posting there anymore after supporting his argument against this preposterous comment.

 

You take it from there.

 

OMG, I never heard that story. Those must have been some tics.

[ldhair]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

 

The same one who told Lehigh96, a Jefferson nickel expert, that the tics on Jefferson's cheeks come from the coal type shovels used at the mint.

 

Lehigh96 was eventually banned from posting there anymore after supporting his argument against this preposterous comment.

 

You take it from there.

There was much more to that thread and the other threads around it. It's not a short story.

[bochiman]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

 

The same one who told Lehigh96, a Jefferson nickel expert, that the tics on Jefferson's cheeks come from the coal type shovels used at the mint.

 

Lehigh96 was eventually banned from posting there anymore after supporting his argument against this preposterous comment.

 

You take it from there.

There was much more to that thread and the other threads around it. It's not a short story.

 

 

Sad.....though, not the first time I have heard similar about CT. I have browsed in, once or twice, but am thankful I wasn't compelled to stick around. Enough drama here and on PCGS forums

[jpcienkus]

 

The conclusions of everyone above seem sound and reasonable.

 

Sans that guy who was linked that has all those initials.

 

Who is that moderaator over there?

 

The same one who told Lehigh96, a Jefferson nickel expert, that the tics on Jefferson's cheeks come from the coal type shovels used at the mint.

 

Lehigh96 was eventually banned from posting there anymore after supporting his argument against this preposterous comment.

 

You take it from there.

There was much more to that thread and the other threads around it. It's not a short story.

 

 

Sad.....though, not the first time I have heard similar about CT. I have browsed in, once or twice, but am thankful I wasn't compelled to stick around. Enough drama here and on PCGS forums

 

Sad thing is that most message boards I've ever been on have drama. Some people create it, surround themselves in it and thrive on it.

[brg5658]

How did I know it was GDJMSP before I even found the thread on CoinTalk?

 

The guy has 40,000+ posts and quite possibly has spread more "educated" misinformation than everyone else on that forum combined. Not to mention he's as obstinate as heck -- he never admits he's wrong, but professes he often does.

[CaptHenway]

What is his real name? Or is it improper to ask that of a forumite?

 

As far as I am concerned, this is Cheers.

[brg5658]

What is his real name? Or is it improper to ask that of a forumite?

 

As far as I am concerned, this is Cheers.

 

His name is Doug Prather, and he has been pictured freely and openly in some of Charmy's past show reports (see below).

 

[Conder101]

The problem comes from terminology sloppiness. Most people tend to call any work done to the die that leaves raised lines "polishing". True polishing would be done with a rotating lap which would only leave very fine lines that would not crisscross lines. But the mint also uses abrasives in a localized manner like a stick or file and these heavy lines that DO crisscross. I believe the mints term for this is stoning the die. After all you really shouldn't call those heavy lines scratched into the die in random directions "polishing", but people do. And that leads to the arguments over whether or not "die polishing" lines can crisscross or not. Die polishing no, die stoning yes.

[brg5658]

The problem comes from terminology sloppiness. Most people tend to call any work done to the die that leaves raised lines "polishing". True polishing would be done with a rotating lap which would only leave very fine lines that would not crisscross lines. But the mint also uses abrasives in a localized manner like a stick or file and these heavy lines that DO crisscross. I believe the mints term for this is stoning the die. After all you really shouldn't call those heavy lines scratched into the die in random directions "polishing", but people do. And that leads to the arguments over whether or not "die polishing" lines can crisscross or not. Die polishing no, die stoning yes.

 

Well, now that's a "technicality" if I have ever heard one. Both things are types of die repair, and the preponderance of the use of the term "die polish" in the hobby means both. Furthermore, Doug seems to be using the term "die polishing" to mean any die repair, not in the strict sense you are using it. He doesn't mention anything else besides die polishing and post-mint-damage. While technically correct, your explanation is a splitting of hairs that clearly was not the intent of Doug's absolute proclamation that "lines caused by die polishing cannot criss cross"...

 

Just my 2 cents...

[messydesk]

Regarding lines on devices:

 

In the large majority of cases, they were quite faint. And when I have seen them on the devices, I don't recall them also being present in areas leading up to the devices.

 

Concentric lines do show up in the recesses of the wings of the eagle on the Morgan dollar reverse quite often, while the fields are typically without these lines.

 

Alos, I was attributing a pile of Peace dollars last night and ran across 1927-S VAM 1H, which has polishing lines above and on Liberty's hair.

[RWB]

All of this falls under the title of "Die maintenance and Repair."

 

The mint used "polishing" to refer only to deliberate production of mirror-like surfaces. However, they had several terms for the same action and/or materials, so descriptions are flexible over time and place.

 

The only modern term that is out of place is the VAM "scribbles" which implies (to me, at least) random, pointless actions.

[CaptHenway]

OK thanks. DO not know the gentleman.

 

I learned about dies and coinage by reading Collectors Clearinghouse back in the 60's and 70's, and the term "die polishing" covered just about anything done to the surface of a die short of actual engraving by a Mint employee before or during the die's usage. As far as I am concerned it still does.

[brg5658]

OK thanks. DO not know the gentleman.

 

I learned about dies and coinage by reading Collectors Clearinghouse back in the 60's and 70's, and the term "die polishing" covered just about anything done to the surface of a die short of actual engraving by a Mint employee before or during the die's usage. As far as I am concerned it still does.

 

Agreed. (thumbs u

[robec1347]

Regarding lines on devices:

 

In the large majority of cases, they were quite faint. And when I have seen them on the devices, I don't recall them also being present in areas leading up to the devices.

 

Concentric lines do show up in the recesses of the wings of the eagle on the Morgan dollar reverse quite often, while the fields are typically without these lines.

 

Alos, I was attributing a pile of Peace dollars last night and ran across 1927-S VAM 1H, which has polishing lines above and on Liberty's hair.

 

This is also present in many of the Lincoln proofs from the 1936-42 era.