• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Your honest opinions sought on this coin

Started by toyonakataro,

37 posts in this topic

Raisethis2

Raisethis2

Posted
Posted

The lines are acceptable in the eyes of PCGS. On an AU coin I tend to agree however, if the coin were in a details holder I wouldn't be at all surprised either.

 

I think the submitter got lucky myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
BillJones

BillJones

Posted
Posted

I agree with the others about the hairlines. The coin has been cleaned, and there are too many of them to ignore.

 

Of course I don't anything about how rare this coin is or how hard it is to find. If this coin is really, really hard to find, and you have been looking for a long time, sometimes you have to ignore the problems if you really want it. If none of those factors apply, I would keep looking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
toyonakataro

toyonakataro

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Thank you for the replies, folks.

I placed bid on this coin based on the auctioner's images, whitch didin't show obvious hairlines( Images were rather small to begin with)

I recieved this coin 2 days ago and called the auctioner yesterday if I could return this lot. They told me to send the coin back for re-examination. I guess they'll decide what to do after they inspect the coin. Before I hear the verdict from them, I wanted to know your opinons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Coindude

Coindude

Posted
Posted

I don't much agree with a "light cleaning", hairlines like that don't come from a light cleaning, but it's definitely not a harsh cleaning either. Is there such a thing as a medium cleaning?

 

Still acceptable in XF / AU and I fully believe this coin is AU. If you can stomach it and it was described this way then all is good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

EF, cleaned, but might benefit in the foliage from light soap and water, and a very soft toothbrush.

 

Cleaning seems too obvious to be "graded." (Maybe it could be bulldozed instead?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
It looks like a lightly cleaned AU coin. I don't like the hairlines, but they don't appear to be bad enough to merit a details grade.

 

Where is the threshold for a details graded piece?

 

That's a fair question and one that I feel is impossible to answer with specifics.

 

I have posted numerous times that often, the determination whether to assign a straight vs. details grade is just as difficult and open to subjectivity and inconsistency as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign.

 

One general rule of thumb I used when I was at NGC was:

 

If the cleaning (or other type of problem) was bad enough to merit a straight grade that was so low, it appeared silly, it was better to assign a details grade instead. I used the term "details grade" so that my post addressed current grading practices. However, when I was a grader, I don't think we were yet using details grades, but instead, were assigning "no-grades" to problem coins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
If NGC and PCGS are straight-grading cleaned coins that they find acceptable, they are creating a market for said coins.

 

 

Or they are attempting to accommodate and/or succeeding at accommodating a market for such coins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Afterword

Afterword

Posted
Posted
If NGC and PCGS are straight-grading cleaned coins that they find acceptable, they are creating a market for said coins.

 

 

Or they are attempting to accommodate and/or succeeding at accommodating a market for such coins.

 

 

 

 

And, from either perspective, a more lucrative market.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
Whose market?

 

While PCGS may think it is acceptable to some market, it would definitely not be acceptable in MY market. I would return the coin.

 

+ 1.

 

And while many posters may question its utility, this type of practice on classic US coins is the reason that CAC exists in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
It looks like a lightly cleaned AU coin. I don't like the hairlines, but they don't appear to be bad enough to merit a details grade.

 

Where is the threshold for a details graded piece?

 

That's a fair question and one that I feel is impossible to answer with specifics.

 

I have posted numerous times that often, the determination whether to assign a straight vs. details grade is just as difficult and open to subjectivity and inconsistency as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign.

 

One general rule of thumb I used when I was at NGC was:

 

If the cleaning (or other type of problem) was bad enough to merit a straight grade that was so low, it appeared silly, it was better to assign a details grade instead. I used the term "details grade" so that my post addressed current grading practices. However, when I was a grader, I don't think we were yet using details grades, but instead, were assigning "no-grades" to problem coins.

 

Thank you for responding. So would you say within a 2 interval net grade would be MA?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
It looks like a lightly cleaned AU coin. I don't like the hairlines, but they don't appear to be bad enough to merit a details grade.

 

Where is the threshold for a details graded piece?

 

That's a fair question and one that I feel is impossible to answer with specifics.

 

I have posted numerous times that often, the determination whether to assign a straight vs. details grade is just as difficult and open to subjectivity and inconsistency as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign.

 

One general rule of thumb I used when I was at NGC was:

 

If the cleaning (or other type of problem) was bad enough to merit a straight grade that was so low, it appeared silly, it was better to assign a details grade instead. I used the term "details grade" so that my post addressed current grading practices. However, when I was a grader, I don't think we were yet using details grades, but instead, were assigning "no-grades" to problem coins.

 

Thank you for responding. So would you say within a 2 interval net grade would be MA?

 

By that, do you for example, mean awarding an otherwise XF coin (which has been cleaned) a grade of Fine, instead? If so, I would prefer to details-grade such a coin, unless I thought VF was acceptable. That's because I think a grade of Fine would probably look silly.

 

However, as another example, I might be OK grading an otherwise gemmy unc. or Proof coin (which has been lightly cleaned) MS62 or PR62 instead of MS65 or PR65. Bottom line, I would feel a need to make decisions on a case by case basis.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Back in the "ole dayz" a coin was given a grade based on wear. Cleaning, marks and other things were then mentioned as modifiers to the grade. It was up to buyer and seller to decide if the coin was acceptable to them. "Net grading" adds a layer of opinion that I feel is unnecessary and misleading.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
orifdoc

orifdoc

Posted
Posted

Being unfamiliar with the foreign coin represented, what is its composition?

 

These kind of hairlines would be more acceptable on an AU 0.9999 silver vs a Cu/Ni clad coin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
newprepper

newprepper

Posted
Posted
So would you say within a 2 interval net grade would be MA?

 

The problem with that is you or somebody down the road unaware of the cleaning decides it is not graded properly and resubmits it and it comes back details graded, now somebody is really unhappy

Link to comment
Share on other sites
toyonakataro

toyonakataro

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Being unfamiliar with the foreign coin represented, what is its composition?

 

These kind of hairlines would be more acceptable on an AU 0.9999 silver vs a Cu/Ni clad coin.

 

Composition is 90% silver and 10% copper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
World Colonial

World Colonial

Posted
Posted
Back in the "ole dayz" a coin was given a grade based on wear. Cleaning, marks and other things were then mentioned as modifiers to the grade. It was up to buyer and seller to decide if the coin was acceptable to them. "Net grading" adds a layer of opinion that I feel is unnecessary and misleading.

 

Most of the coins in my series I have seen that are "details" graded are "net graded". My opinion is that they should not be because if a coin has AU level of wear, that is what it has. "Net grading" to "XF" seems to reduce its price to a VF or even less because the discounts on these coins are substantial even though the absolute prices are lo by US standards

 

Since TPG is a US preference by a lopsided proportion, when selling it, cracking it out of the holder is a logical thing to consider. I own several pillars that are in "details" holders where I will be recommending to whoever gets it that they should do so and consign them to Calico. These coins would of course look better and should be worth more if they hadn't been cleaned but even most "market acceptable" coins in these series have almost certainly been cleaned in the past anyway. There isn't anything really wrong with these coins as far as i am concerned. They should sell for less but not at current discounts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
toyonakataro

toyonakataro

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The auctioner e-mailed me that they would not accpept my request to return the lot.

Upon re-examiation, they decided it's not cleaned.

Moreover, they said it's not cleaned because PCGS is strict on detecting cleaned coins and that they say it isn't..........quite dissapointed to hear such statement from Japan's biggest auction company.

 

I sent a link of this thread hoping they might change their opinion, but they wouldn't and now I'm stucked with this coin.

 

 

Thank you for opinions and discussions about lightly cleaned coins.

And please be aware.......you might see the lot on Heritage someday ;)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Conder101

Conder101

Posted
Posted

So you send it back to PCGS under their grading guarantee with the notice that the coin is harshly cleaned and hairlined and should not have been graded problem free.

 

 

"Net grading" to "XF" seems to reduce its price to a VF or even less

In that case the coin has not been net graded low enough. it isn't a Net XF it is a Net VF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
toyonakataro

toyonakataro

Posted
  • Author
Posted
So you send it back to PCGS under their grading guarantee with the notice that the coin is harshly cleaned and hairlined and should not have been graded problem free.

 

 

"Net grading" to "XF" seems to reduce its price to a VF or even less

In that case the coin has not been net graded low enough. it isn't a Net XF it is a Net VF.

 

That's a thought. Conder101

I might try that someday, but I haven't decided yet.

Now it's mine and I have plenty of time to decide what to do with this coin hm

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing