Why I don't like "Market Grading" (picts)

[Dog97]

I go buy me a 1923 Peace Dollar NGC 64 on eBay, the seller has a pretty good pict. I see a small semi sorta rainbow crescent on the periph and a mark by Liberty's eye. I also notice some other marks on the face & neck but I'm thinking hey it's in a NGC 64 holder and I've been around a while and know how to grade and how PCGS & NGC do it so I'm sure the marks are very light. After all everybody knows a 64 will have a few light marks in the prime focal areas.

Then I get it in hand and the mark is actually about 1/8" long across the upper cheek near the eye. Nice & shiny mark too, really stands out against the thick original patinia. A staple scratch!! A mark this severe is clearly 62 material max no matter who's grade standards you use. Yeah it's nice & deep, & I can see the the edges of the cut are raised up and rolled back.

Can I see beautiful monster tone raising the eye appeal of a 65.999 to a 66? Yes.

Can I see a dark ugly brown crescent area raising the grade of a 61 or 62 with severe surface problems to a 64? NO!!

Why is it so hard to get an accurate grade? Throw the perceived tone appeal [!@#%^&^] out and get back to grading!!

see attachment for pict

[Dog97]

see atachment for close up

[gmarguli]

Looks like a clean coin without that mark. Perhaps without the mark it would have been MS66 and NGC knocked 2 points off for that mark?

[PQSeated]

I have to agree with Gmarguli. The coin does look to be almost mark free. Plus, I actually enjoy that toning. I don't think the 64 grade is out of question. PCGS might have bodybagged the coin, though.

[MarkFeld]

Dog, it looks fine to me as a 64, even without the use of "market grading".

 

It's what I like to refer to, as a properly graded coin that I happen not to like, because of something that bothers/distracts me. There are lots of such coins out there. Sometimes it's difficult for me to reconcile not liking a coin with the idea that it is still properly graded.

[paigow_johnny]

If that's a 64, then I sure won't buy any 64s "sight unseen". I'd better go back and read my ANA grading guide tonight about acceptable marks for a 64. That is a major mark in a prime focal area.

[John Maben]

This is a great "discussion" coin. Some don't mind it, others do. That's the nature of this business and hobby and it will always be that way. Based on the picture, I'd call it a 64 again. You can't zero in on one defect, even if it's an obvious one, and because you find it offensive determine that the coin can't be better than a 62. This is particularly true when it appears the remainder of the coin is quite nice. What you can do, as Mr Feld may have implied but stopped short of saying, is to simply not buy coins without looking at them first or getting a return priviledge.

 

John

[Dog97]

Did you guys look at the closeup?

gmarguli makes a good point but as most of you know I'm more technical grade oriented and very tough on coins, even my own. Laura from Legend told me one time I was so picky it created a bias in my mind. But I have problems with a defect that bad in the prime focal being more than 60-63. After all, heavy marks are 61 material IAW ANA standards. Just because the other attributes are so nice that it grades higher is why I don't like market acceptability & all that jive.

I see I have a former NGC grader and a current grader commenting on my coin. Cool! That's what I like about these boards, the wide & varying opinions recieved. Anyway Mark Feld hit the nail right on the head with his comment. Anybody that I show it to will say "nice coin but it has a staple scratch what's a 64 doing with that huge gouge?" This is my first foray into toned NGC Peace and I'm just kinda dissapointed but you guys are making me feel better. Maybe I need to get out of the dinosaur days and get with the current times huh?

Hey thanks for the words guys!

[John Maben]

Dog,

 

Collecting coins is in many ways a personal thing. However, it's important to keep an open mind in order to further yourself along and gain broad perspective. I am going to start a new thread with links to 10 grading tips I recently updated and provided to Coin World. They published them in 3 parts both in print and on their website which I can't seem to access at this time. Anyway, I thought they might be helpful.

 

John

[IrishMike]

John I just finished reading your article and it is terrific stuff. I find it difficult to comprehend that you can grade Dog's coin a 64 but body bag coins with planchet flaws. Please explain to a slab newbie.

[fcloud-migration]

It does look like a decent coin. The mark is kind of large, but the tone pulls you eye away from the scratch. I do think PCGS would have BB.

[BankNote1]

I like the coin. The tick does detract but the cresent color adds to the coins appeal. I have seen worse in a '64 holder. But it all boils down to, if you don't like the coin now, you won't like it in the future. Maybe the seller will let you return the coin.

I also received a coin today, that I don't agree on the grade. The holder says MS67 but the coin says MS65 to me. But I dearly love the coin! The color is out of this world. I just don't like the '67 money I paid, even though the coin is worth more than '65 money. To be fair to the dealer, I was offered a refund or they would send the coin in for a re-grade for me! But I am going to send this one in for a re-grade, myself!

[dragon]

Dog is correct. If that pic is accurate and that GASH is as long and deep as it looks, there is NO WAY that coin is a 64, not even close, not even if the rest of the coin (without that gash) was a 69 with incredible color.

 

dragon

[K6AZ]

With all due respect to John and Mark, that coin should not be in a 64 holder. A mark of that magnitude should limit the grade to 63, regardless of the toning or lack of marks in other areas. It is in the prime focal area. I do tend to be very conservative, but I just don't see any other explanation here other than market grading.

[Tradedollarnut]

I once was offered a beautiful 1873 trade dollar by B&M. It had gorgeous MS66 surfaces but also a big gash (yes, a gash) above the eagle's head. This canyon was at least three times as significant at that staple scratch. I almost bought it because the balance of the coin was so nice, but decided that the gash would bother me too much.

 

The coin was PCGS MS64.

 

[Julian]

I do not think that it is a staple scratch. I believe it is a bag mark and because of the lack of other serious marks, they saw fit to grade it 64. At the worst case, it is a 63. Don't get so aggravated about it. This is a hobby

[John Maben]

Mike,

 

Some planchet flaws get graded and others do not. The first thing we must determine is if the flaw is "stable". If the answer is no, we have a no grade. Many flaws fall into this category as they are flaking or peeling off or in jeopardy of coming loose. If it is a stable flaw which is basically an indentation in the surface it all depends on the size and location. Another type of flaw is the type that appears in streaks, usually black or redish. If these are severe we will not grade them. Each planchet flaw must be evaluated individually.

 

John

[Dog97]

JMaben

& others

I'd like to point out that I'm not a disillusioned eBayer using NGC as a whuppin boy because I thought I was shanked by a rogue seller with a bad coin.

I bought the coin from Leon Hendrickson @ SilverTowne & have full return privileges.

Other than a NGC Peace Sample Slab (yeah I'm the guy with the Morgan Sample Slab in the NGC registry) This is the first NGC Peace Dollar I ever owned. I think I've owned a grand total of 2 PCGS holdered Peace Dollars.

Thanks to the thread I started I see there might be a difference between the blast white PCGS Morgans I've collected for years & toned Peace Dollars in NGC holders.

You reckon?

[CarlWohlforth]

This thread has been educational for me.

 

I have a 1853 Seated Dime with arrows that has staple scratches on each side. I sent it back to NGC for a review and they stuck with the grade (MS 63 Gem with scratch). To me those deep marks in the focal area really are a distraction!

[John Maben]

Bottom Line

 

Certain coins will bother certain people more than others, just as others will appeal to some more than others. This just helps to keep things interesting. From experience as a dealer and grader, nine out of ten times, a coin is not graded wrong (by NGC or the other company) just because someone dislikes something about it, even if they are knowlegeable. I realize this more now than I did early on, and strong opinions that are not shared by a majority can actually cost you money if you are dealing or trading regularly.

 

John

[jtryka]

What a GREAT thread!!! I agree with John Maben that collecting is very personal and since I am not a big fan of toning, this coin does not hold the positive sway that would offset the mark on the face. To toning lovers, it might more than offset the distraction. Do I think it's a 64? It might be, but I wouldn't pay 64 money for it. This also brings up the lovely topic of market grading, which definitely exists, and really makes the "buy the coin not the holder" cliche quite applicable. But fortunately since the hobby is so personal, there are many examples which can work in your favor, buying coins that you find very appealing in holders that might suggest a technical grade. Remember all the threads on the 33 Saint in "MS-65?" Well to me, there was no bigger example of market grading in the history of the hobby. Here's an example of taking advantage of discrepancies the other way. This is a very common 1928 Saint I bought a few years ago that NGC graded MS-64 1928 . Click on the images and look at the enlarged photos. Personally, I think it looks better than any other 64 I've seen, and many coins in MS-65 holders, but it's just an average common date Saint, so who cares? At the time I paid full MS-64 ask(of course since this was at the low of gold, 64 ask then is about equal to 63 bid now), and was happy to do it! You should never keep a coin that disappoints you, it ruins the fun of the hobby. Besides, there are so many other coins out there that won't disappoint you!

[nwcs]

This has been an interesting discussion. One thing Mark mentioned on another post once was the importance of getting the "gestalt" of a coin, seeing all of it without focusing on one thing and then worrying about particulars. So far, that's one of the hardest things I've been learning! Although when I take the ANA grading class next month I hope to learn more.

 

This coin here is one of those I'd love to hate to have to sell. The crescent is really cool, but the mark is really obvious. If I owned it, I probably wouldn't look at it much. But on the other hand, that is such a cool crescent!

 

Neil

[michael]

with reagrds to price and grade i think it is a 64 and if it were in a 62 holder worth just as much

 

so for me overall it is a 64 but i do not like the coin but still a 64 to me

 

sometimes it is hard to grade a coin put a single number on the holder

the services do the best with waht they got

 

for me a 64 and something for me with negative eye appeal but nonetheless still overall a 64

 

but again coins is a personal thing

 

sincerely michael

 

BUT REMEMBER THE DATE!!!!

 

NOW I AM SURE IF THIS WERE A 34-S IT WOULD NOT BE IN A 64 HOLDER

 

coins and coin grading is a subjective thing

 

see what i mean?

 

 

[michael]

overall this is a common 25 dollar coin and not something to think about more than 2 seconds

 

sincerely michael

[keithdagen]

This coin reminds me of the PCGS MS-65 Morgan that I have in my Type Set. Great toning on the obverse, blast white reverse. Except on close examination, there is a deep staple scratch centered on the eagle's breast, right in the focal point. Not as bad as this scratch, but pretty close.

[Dog97]

Key words: on close examination, reverse

Still a staple scratch on a 65 would get me hopping mad.

You know what Keith? I don't like the bonus given to toned coins.

[keithdagen]

Dog97,

 

Here's the link to the pics of the coin in my Type set. See how close you really have to look.

[parasite]

Dog,

This coin looks like a 1983 not a 1923. Could it be that it is a 8/2 variety???

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

[Dog97]

Keith I looked at you very pretty obv toned 03 and said that's neat then I flipped it over and the first thing I saw was a HUGE staple scratch. It just jumped out at me and I said whoaaaa!! The second thing I saw was the hit in the field left of the eagle but it's really minor, only 2 reeds hit it. Then my eyes got to roaming around and I noticed the die chips around IGWT. Those are really cool.

 

parasite-

parasite? heehe.That's just the way my scan looks. You won't find overdates on Peace Dollars because the date was punched into the master die each year instead of each working die which greatly decreased the margin for error.

[BankNote1]

It looks like a nice coin to me. It is hard to find a silver dollar without a hit or tick somewhere!