I saw two unpleasant surprises in PCGS slabs this past weekend

[James_OldeTowne]

... , both at the ISNA (Indiana State Numismatic Association). First, though, please don't see this as a slam on PCGS - similar problems exist in ALL slabs. My purpose here is to illustrate that certification is an art, not a science.

 

First, I was shown a 1924-S Standing Liberty quarter counterfeit in, of all things, a "PCGS Secure" slab. Yikes! And of more concern to me (as an early type collector), a 1794 Flowing Hair half-dollar graded G-4 (non-Secure) that was holed and plugged.

 

Look at the coin as well as the holder!!

 

This said, I did buy a few great coins in PCGS holders .

[brg5658]

Hi James, good to see you here. Wish you had that cert # for the 1924-S -- would be interesting to see the "Secure Plus" scan/photo on the PCGS website and look at the tell-tale signs of it being a forgery.

[Nutmeg Coin]

What is their liability with those two coins?

[PerryHall]

... , both at the ISNA (Indiana State Numismatic Association). First, though, please don't see this as a slam on PCGS - similar problems exist in ALL slabs. My purpose here is to illustrate that certification is an art, not a science.

 

First, I was shown a 1924-S Standing Liberty quarter counterfeit in, of all things, a "PCGS Secure" slab. Yikes! And of more concern to me (as an early type collector), a 1794 Flowing Hair half-dollar graded G-4 (non-Secure) that was holed and plugged.

 

Look at the coin as well as the holder!!

 

This said, I did buy a few great coins in PCGS holders .

 

In the case of the 1924-S quarter, was it an added mintmark or was the entire coin fake?

[TonerGuy]

Oh thats troubling... in all ways.

 

The one place I expect TPGs never to make a mistake is in counterfeit detection. We can argue/debate all we want about grades/toning/originality but I sincerely hope the counterfeiters arent getting that good they can fool PCGS graders.

 

The holed coin - well thats a mistake. Not a larger problem.

[BillJones]

Oh thats troubling... in all ways.

 

The one place I expect TPGs never to make a mistake is in counterfeit detection. We can argue/debate all we want about grades/toning/originality but I sincerely hope the counterfeiters arent getting that good they can fool PCGS graders.

 

The holed coin - well thats a mistake. Not a larger problem.

 

There have been other counterfeits in PCGS holders over the years. One was a Wreath Cent that turned out to be an electrotype. You normally think that these things would not fool an expert grader, but I've seen "drop-in electrotypes" that had the edge lettering which had all of the appearances of a genuine, high grade coin.

 

NOTE: A "drop-in electrotype" is a piece is made with side that has the rim design. The other side is "dropped" into the rim half, and if it's done with precision you can't see the seem. There is no tell tale line around the edge because edge was part of the original electro.

 

As for TPG companies, from what I know they have made good on these mistakes. I mess up on a half eagle that had been treated with iodine, and PCGS bought coin back from me for what I paid.

[Nutmeg Coin]

There was one 1794 dollar plugged at the mint: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/86851?redir=t

 

Every other one has been plugged after leaving the mint I think.

[e1cnr]

there are also counterfeit holders - so how do you know who made the mistake? it could have been the guy who originally bought the item.

[TonerGuy]

 

There have been other counterfeits in PCGS holders over the years. One was a Wreath Cent that turned out to be an electrotype. You normally think that these things would not fool an expert grader, but I've seen "drop-in electrotypes" that had the edge lettering which had all of the appearances of a genuine, high grade coin.

 

NOTE: A "drop-in electrotype" is a piece is made with side that has the rim design. The other side is "dropped" into the rim half, and if it's done with precision you can't see the seem. There is no tell tale line around the edge because edge was part of the original electro.

 

As for TPG companies, from what I know they have made good on these mistakes. I mess up on a half eagle that had been treated with iodine, and PCGS bought coin back from me for what I paid.

 

Im sure PCGS would make good on it.

 

However, I could almost understand a Wreath Cent. I dont know the population reports but Im going to guess that PCGS has graded substantially more total SLQs than Wreath Cents. Which, in this instance, I am assuming to mean that the counterfeiters are getting better at common coins as opposed to the graders at PCGS are getting more lax. Sure it could have been an honest mistake but I think with computerized CAD design software and die making programs it might be a bigger problem then 1 SLQ.

 

But then again thats just my opinion from the shallow end of the numismatic pool.

[BillJones]

Which, in this instance, I am assuming to mean that the counterfeiters are getting better at common coins as opposed to the graders at PCGS are getting more lax.

 

You don't that for sure because the Chinese are duplicating TPG holders and putting their counterfeit coins in them. That's why we need to slab serial numbers to compare with the genuine item. If they match, then PCGS blew it. If they don't it's a counterfeit slab and coin.

[James_OldeTowne]

Which, in this instance, I am assuming to mean that the counterfeiters are getting better at common coins as opposed to the graders at PCGS are getting more lax.

You don't that for sure because the Chinese are duplicating TPG holders and putting their counterfeit coins in them. That's why we need to slab serial numbers to compare with the genuine item. If they match, then PCGS blew it. If they don't it's a counterfeit slab and coin.

I have seen plenty enough counterfeit slabs to know that the ones in question were genuine PCGS holders. The owner of the 1924-S actually learned of the coin's counterfeit status through Jay Cline, THE expert on the series, and evidently it's a known struck counterfeit. The owner of the plugged FH half was not aware of the plug until I pointed it out to him, and at his request, I explained how the grading guarantee is supposed to work (for both TPGs). He is planning to pursue compensation. Luckily, he had all of his purchases very well documented.

[Keigwin]

TPG's sometimes make mistakes. It's all good...that's where the guarantee kicks in.

Lance.

 

[19Lyds]

Oh thats troubling... in all ways.

 

The one place I expect TPGs never to make a mistake is in counterfeit detection. We can argue/debate all we want about grades/toning/originality but I sincerely hope the counterfeiters arent getting that good they can fool PCGS graders.

 

The holed coin - well thats a mistake. Not a larger problem.

Kinda makes you wonder the experience level of the two that graded the SLQ and the finalizer donut?