Is the MS70 look stable

[copper toning]

I have been collecting for 5 years and in this time I have mostly collected early wheat cents with the MS70 look.

 

I can not say for certain any of my coins have had ms70 used on them but I do know that the ones with the look I have had for nearly 5 years have not had any changes. I have owned a few that other collectors owned for years prior to me that appear stable.

 

Curios what other collectors experiences are with these types of coins.

 

Do you think that collectors accept the look as MA?

 

Do you think the tpgs find it MA?

 

I asked both separate since the habits of each other surely play a role in what is slabbed and collected. Not sure who has the most pull here.

 

[RWB]

No.

&

No.

[copper toning]

3 Questions

[RWB]

Two question marks. Two responses.

[TonerGuy]

Stable 10+ yrs

 

Yes

 

Yes

 

I like'em. I will buy them. Collect what you like.

 

 

[Coinbuf]

I have two that for sure were treated with MS70 ( Iknow this as I was the one that did it while experimenting to see the results) which then were holdered by a TPG and have remained stable since.

 

Some collectors consider it MA, many do not. Myself TPG blessed or not if I feel that a copper coin's color is the result of MS70 or some other substance I might still buy it but only at a steep discount.

 

Both TPG's were rather loose with the MA of this look five or so years ago, NGC has since been much more stringent about holdering MA coins than PCGS seems to be of late,

[copper toning]

Can you post a pic of your 2 coins?

 

How long have they been stable?

 

I find it very difficult to find blue toned wheats at any discount but that my be because I am looking at pre 1920 and already holdered

[RWB]

..also, are they taking their meds?

[Coinbuf]

Can you post a pic of your 2 coins?

 

How long have they been stable?

 

I find it very difficult to find blue toned wheats at any discount but that my be because I am looking at pre 1920 and already holdered

 

I don't remember when I submitted those two but sometime around '03 or '04 as that was when I was doing some chemistry experiments. Only have the pic of this one, not sure if I sent the other out for pics or not. I have shown this one before and received alot of grief from Rick Snow on one occasion, I still post it ATS just for Rick now and again . It's my theory that coins like this one, which graded MS65BN if memory serves correct, are rather easy to slide through due to the low value. Heck back then there were almost no collectors of BN Lincolns much less the treated ones. That all seemed to change when lots of blue toned IHC's started to show up; many thought they were pretty and were bringing some high prices until it was decided that many if not most had been created. Of course now with the demand for color even these treated coins both old and modern are seeing some high prices paid.

 

[TonerGuy]

Very interesting... and pretty. Do you have any ideas why there are two "untoned" spots on Lincoln's jacket at about 6 o'clock ? Was there something on the coin that prevented the MS70 from reacting with the copper ?

[Hard Times]

Given that all MS70 does is remove brown patina and gunk of the surfaces of coins, I am not sure what you mean by is it stable? If you mean that once you remove that stuff, the coin remains stable, well, why not?

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

Can you post a pic of your 2 coins?

I have shown this one before and received alot of grief from Rick Snow on one occasion, I still post it ATS just for Rick now and again . It's my theory that coins like this one, which graded MS65BN if memory serves correct, are rather easy to slide through due to the low value. Heck back then there were almost no collectors of BN Lincolns much less the treated ones. That all seemed to change when lots of blue toned IHC's started to show up; many thought they were pretty and were bringing some high prices until it was decided that many if not most had been created. Of course now with the demand for color even these treated coins both old and modern are seeing some high prices paid.

 

 

I have spoken with Rick about the blue IHC's and he has discussed in the past in the Fly-In journal. If I recall correctly, Rick says the reason they all turned up at the same time was simply because old time collections (possibly just one with many in it, I don't recall) were put on the market at the same time, that had the blue IHC's sitting there for decades.

 

Does anyone have any images to post of these allegedly 'created' IHC's? I would love to see some and I have never seen images of them.

 

Who is 'it' that decided 'that many if not most had been created'. Who are these so-called scientific experts to draw such a conclusion? Did 'they' also give a demonstration on how the IHC's were created?

 

As anyone here can see, I am very skeptical that MS70 causes stable blue toning on copper, or any other color of toning for that matter. I have more evidence I will post on my thread on this topic where I performed experiments in 2011, and will post more evidence in the near future. There is no science behind the blanket statement by some that MS70 gives long term stable and colorful toning to copper. It removes brown patina and gunk, nothing more. Whether that is ethical is another topic altogether.

 

Best, HT

[copper toning]

Given that all MS70 does is remove brown patina and gunk of the surfaces of coins, I am not sure what you mean by is it stable? If you mean that once you remove that stuff, the coin remains stable, well, why not?

 

Best, HT

 

By stable I mean has anyone one seen these colors change in the holder or once it is done that is it.

 

Overall I was curios if any one was experienced with long term effects on copper. Even if the coin did not gain blue hues

[copper toning]

A reply from Rick Snow

 

Someone posted the chemical analysis of the stuff awhile ago. Turns out it is potassium sulfate, which is used to dissolve organic material. Essentially it is cuticle remover. It has been found that it is not a soap or detergent or acid. The blue tone comes from the removal of the oils and organic debris on the coin. I don't believe it is toning applied to the coin by the chemical. Since most all brown and RB copper has oil of some kind on it from the air or handling, when it is totally removed it looks vastly different from what we are used to seeing. Over time the blue color will revert to brown as oils and debris reattach to the surface.

[Hard Times]

A reply from Rick Snow

 

Someone posted the chemical analysis of the stuff awhile ago. Turns out it is potassium sulfate, which is used to dissolve organic material. Essentially it is cuticle remover. It has been found that it is not a soap or detergent or acid. The blue tone comes from the removal of the oils and organic debris on the coin. I don't believe it is toning applied to the coin by the chemical. Since most all brown and RB copper has oil of some kind on it from the air or handling, when it is totally removed it looks vastly different from what we are used to seeing. Over time the blue color will revert to brown as oils and debris reattach to the surface.

 

Here are my before, after, and now images of applying MS70. Rick is bang on. These coppers were sitting in a cloth on my photography table since I MS70d them, then in 2011, took the shots yesterday. Note how blues have mostly gone away - browns coming back, more deeper coloring toning with time where reds are overprinting any blues that were there on some...... These have not been in slabs but sandwiched in a cotton or synthetic fabric cloth used to clean eye glasses (not sure what the fabric is) over the 3.5 years. Everyone is welcome to draw their own interpretations for these. The ones that were partly MS70'd for the original images were redone fully after the 2011 images to remove all brown patina. Also, in hand, the greasy look that occurs right after MS70 application is gone now.

 

Best, HT

 

 

 

 

 

 

And a pretty copper for fun that I have never MS70'd:

 

 

 

 

[Coindude]

HT: interestingly enough I like the coins better now than immediately after the dip.

 

Some observations:

 

1951 looks like it was possibly only half dipped. Definitely much improved since and appears that the MS70 spread out to improve the look of the whole coin.

 

1956 although what I would consider as an improved look has since developed a carbon spot below LIBERTY.

 

1944 is quite interesting. It has since developed a carbon spot on the jacket. The reverse on the other hand is quite improved. The streaks are completely gone and the spot that was on the right facing wheat ear is completely dissipated. How the heck did that happen?

 

1854 this coin was super before, gorgeous after and now has such a natural look about it that I would have never suspected that MS70 was used on it. The blotchiness on the lower obverse and on the reverse at STATES is strange. Does it really look like that in hand?

[ldhair]

This was a really big deal many years ago ATS. There were a lot of threads that got heated over the topic. Many folks thought a doctor created many of them. The use of Blue Ribbon was also being brought up in the different threads. I don't think they were deleting as many threads back then. A search might bring up some of them.

 

The science was over my head. I'm thinking folks were actually changing the coins color back and forth. I'm not sure. It was too far back for me.

Greg that posts here could probably tell us what was going on.

 

I have not seen anyone saying they are not stable.

 

[Coinbuf]

Can you post a pic of your 2 coins?

I have shown this one before and received alot of grief from Rick Snow on one occasion, I still post it ATS just for Rick now and again . It's my theory that coins like this one, which graded MS65BN if memory serves correct, are rather easy to slide through due to the low value. Heck back then there were almost no collectors of BN Lincolns much less the treated ones. That all seemed to change when lots of blue toned IHC's started to show up; many thought they were pretty and were bringing some high prices until it was decided that many if not most had been created. Of course now with the demand for color even these treated coins both old and modern are seeing some high prices paid.

 

 

I have spoken with Rick about the blue IHC's and he has discussed in the past in the Fly-In journal. If I recall correctly, Rick says the reason they all turned up at the same time was simply because old time collections (possibly just one with many in it, I don't recall) were put on the market at the same time, that had the blue IHC's sitting there for decades.

 

Does anyone have any images to post of these allegedly 'created' IHC's? I would love to see some and I have never seen images of them.

 

Who is 'it' that decided 'that many if not most had been created'. Who are these so-called scientific experts to draw such a conclusion? Did 'they' also give a demonstration on how the IHC's were created?

 

As anyone here can see, I am very skeptical that MS70 causes stable blue toning on copper, or any other color of toning for that matter. I have more evidence I will post on my thread on this topic where I performed experiments in 2011, and will post more evidence in the near future. There is no science behind the blanket statement by some that MS70 gives long term stable and colorful toning to copper. It removes brown patina and gunk, nothing more. Whether that is ethical is another topic altogether.

 

Best, HT

 

Several years ago there were many threads about this subject ATS where others like myself showed images of coins that once treated with blue ribbon or MS70 showed a change in color with blue and purple being the predominate colors post application. I know that Rick and other experts were involved in those discussions and at the time as I recall many of those involved felt that the blue IHC's were created. However I never in my post called anyone a "so-called scientific experts" so I would caution you to be more careful when adding words to my posts sir!!

 

I'm not 100% certain that anyone really knows why MS70 has the effect it does on copper. Does it react with the surface itself? Or is it a reaction to what is on the coin's surface? We may not really ever know, like grading it's mostly just opinions gleaned from experiments that have been performed under different conditions.

 

Your examples are not good examples to prove or disprove the stability of the coins you treated as you have stored them in a cloth which may have contained oils or chemicals that could have affected the outcome. The example I posted was sent in for grading very soon after I had experimented with it and looks the same today as it did back then. The encapsulation and storage in IS boxes shows me that with proper storage these treated coins are stable and the color can remain. But just as with any coin the method of storage will affect the look of the coin. Just as coins placed in different albums often have patterns of toning the cloth you used may have caused your results to be different than if you had them slabbed. I guess that what I'm saying is that the method and material used in storing coins; all coins, is a huge factor in how stable the surface is.

 

I would post a today pic of this coin but I suck at pics which is why I send coins to Mark for good pics.

[Hard Times]

HI Sam,

With the 51, I had originally used MS70 on half of the coin, then after imaging, did the whole. With the 54 half cent, the reason I used MS70 is because it was harshly cleaned and graded such. In the middle after images, you can see the scratches on the obverse in the right side fields. The blue right after went away and the 2014 images are accurate as it looks today.

 

Best, HT

[RWB]

If the colors continue to change like in the examples, why do it?

Personally, not one of the originals benefited from treatment in whatever was used.

[Hard Times]

"However I never in my post called anyone a "so-called scientific experts" so I would caution you to be more careful when adding words to my posts sir!!"

 

Huh? I did not add that to your post. I added it to my post. I am the one calling them so-called scientific experts, how is that you can suggest that I said you said that is beyond me and seems your are being abit over touchy and trying to overinterpret posts from other folks. Obviously, I did not credit you with saying this.

 

I have used blue ribbon on many of coins. It is a preservative and coats the coin, it does not change its color.

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

If the colors continue to change like in the examples, why do it?

Personally, not one of the originals benefited from treatment in whatever was used.

 

Totally agree, I only did these experiments on coppers with little value in order to see if I could generate a stable blue color that some claim is the result of MS70 application on some coins with value - i.e. the 'blue' proof IHC's etc. I could not, the one old coin that went blue, the blue went away with time as documented here. Hence in my view, these experiments prove that coppers with spectacular colored toning is not the result of application with MS70 - this is simply an old wives tale passed down by so-called expert numismatists with no background or evidence to support their claims. That was the point of this Roger. I would never doctor a coin with MS70 that was rare or valuable - I want my coins to be original as possible.

 

Best, HT

[RWB]

Understood. Thanks!

[Coinbuf]

If the colors continue to change like in the examples, why do it?

Personally, not one of the originals benefited from treatment in whatever was used.

 

Totally agree, I only did these experiments on coppers with little value in order to see if I could generate a stable blue color that some claim is the result of MS70 application on some coins with value - i.e. the 'blue' proof IHC's etc. I could not, the one old coin that went blue, the blue went away with time as documented here. Hence in my view, these experiments prove that coppers with spectacular colored toning is not the result of application with MS70 - this is simply an old wives tale passed down by so-called expert numismatists with no background or evidence to support their claims. That was the point of this Roger. I would never doctor a coin with MS70 that was rare or valuable - I want my coins to be original as possible.

 

Best, HT

 

Bogus conclusion.

[robec1347]

Here's a link to an early thread on the subject of MS70 and copper.

 

Link

[Hard Times]

If the colors continue to change like in the examples, why do it?

Personally, not one of the originals benefited from treatment in whatever was used.

 

Totally agree, I only did these experiments on coppers with little value in order to see if I could generate a stable blue color that some claim is the result of MS70 application on some coins with value - i.e. the 'blue' proof IHC's etc. I could not, the one old coin that went blue, the blue went away with time as documented here. Hence in my view, these experiments prove that coppers with spectacular colored toning is not the result of application with MS70 - this is simply an old wives tale passed down by so-called expert numismatists with no background or evidence to support their claims. That was the point of this Roger. I would never doctor a coin with MS70 that was rare or valuable - I want my coins to be original as possible.

 

Best, HT

 

Bogus conclusion.

 

[Hard Times]

Here's a link to an early thread on the subject of MS70 and copper.

 

Link

 

Thanks Bob,

No blue coins shown in that thread. Mostly descriptions of using MS70 that remove patina (i.e. skin), and not turning coppers blue. Just exactly what I found as well, removes patina, exposes underlying toning in the copper surface, and when it turned the one coin blue, color went away over a few months to a year. No proof that the blue IHC's are doctored.

 

Best, HT

[Coinbuf]

If the colors continue to change like in the examples, why do it?

Personally, not one of the originals benefited from treatment in whatever was used.

 

Totally agree, I only did these experiments on coppers with little value in order to see if I could generate a stable blue color that some claim is the result of MS70 application on some coins with value - i.e. the 'blue' proof IHC's etc. I could not, the one old coin that went blue, the blue went away with time as documented here. Hence in my view, these experiments prove that coppers with spectacular colored toning is not the result of application with MS70 - this is simply an old wives tale passed down by so-called expert numismatists with no background or evidence to support their claims. That was the point of this Roger. I would never doctor a coin with MS70 that was rare or valuable - I want my coins to be original as possible.

 

Best, HT

 

Bogus conclusion.

 

 

I agree your thoughts and results are totally laughable, glad you do understand that.

[copper toning]

Can you post a pic of your 2 coins?

 

How long have they been stable?

 

I find it very difficult to find blue toned wheats at any discount but that my be because I am looking at pre 1920 and already holdered

 

I don't remember when I submitted those two but sometime around '03 or '04 as that was when I was doing some chemistry experiments. Only have the pic of this one, not sure if I sent the other out for pics or not. I have shown this one before and received alot of grief from Rick Snow on one occasion, I still post it ATS just for Rick now and again . It's my theory that coins like this one, which graded MS65BN if memory serves correct, are rather easy to slide through due to the low value. Heck back then there were almost no collectors of BN Lincolns much less the treated ones. That all seemed to change when lots of blue toned IHC's started to show up; many thought they were pretty and were bringing some high prices until it was decided that many if not most had been created. Of course now with the demand for color even these treated coins both old and modern are seeing some high prices paid.

 

 

1st I like this coin very much

 

2nd your original post in 06 said this coin turned due to acetone. I am assuming your memory was more fresh then.

[dimefreak]

Is this MS70 look? Im guessing it is because its the only lot I could manage to win in Baltimore

http://www.stacksbowers.com/browseauctions/lotarchive.aspx?AuctionID=6039&Lot=14447