Does this franklin's grade look right to you?

[Danye West]

I have been hearing a lot about how coins are often graded incorrectly. Someone who went to the Colorado Springs grading class/seminar learned PCGS graders spent 3 SECONDS PER COIN and the grade accuracy is 60%! In my opinion, this coin was poorly graded by PCGS. Please tell me your opinion on the grade of this franklin, and guess the PCGS grade of this franklin. Grade revealed later today or tomorrow. (Not my coin btw so I cannot get better pictures, sorry)

PS: Should this be in the spare a grade forum?

Dante

 

 

 

 

[Raisethis2]

The coin looks pretty solid to me but the pictures are a little lacking. On the obverse there are clear die polish lines that are part of the minting process and do not factor into grading. That may be what you see that makes you think it's overgraded.

 

I think it's an MS 65 to MS 66. Whether it has full bell lines or not I cannot determine.

 

PS. It should have been posted in the "Buddy can you spare a grade forum" but the traffic there is a little lacking so this is a logical alternative if you ask me.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

The pictures are way too small to accurately grade this coin. And in one week, everyone will have lost interest and forgot this thread.

 

Post better pictures, and then reveal the grade a day later.

[AHFreak]

Pictures are not anywhere near quality or size to be able to accurately grade. Based on what I can see though, I think MS66 is reasonable, and from where Im sitting, FBL looks possible as well.

 

I think posting the actual grade later on tonight would be the thing to do when starting a thread like this.

 

I also think that if you know how to grade a coin, it is absolutely possible and realistic to spend 2-3 seconds looking at each side to establish an accurate grade.

[SkyMan]

The pictures are way too small to accurately grade this coin. And in one week, everyone will have lost interest and forgot this thread.

 

Post better pictures, and then reveal the grade a day later.

 

+1

[WoodenJefferson]

When you have a Green Monster box of PR/MS-69's sitting in front of you, 3 seconds to find that 70 seems about right. It takes a grader 3 seconds just to take a collector coin out of the flip...if you believe what you hear about submitted collector coins being graded in 3 seconds flat...well.

[MarkFeld]

I have been hearing a lot about how coins are often graded incorrectly. Someone who went to the Colorado Springs grading class/seminar learned PCGS graders spent 3 SECONDS PER COIN and the grade accuracy is 60%! In my opinion, this coin was poorly graded by PCGS. Please tell me your opinion on the grade of this franklin, and guess the PCGS grade of this franklin. Grade revealed in 1 week. (Not my coin btw)

PS: Should this be in the spare a grade forum?

 

Dante

 

 

 

As an ex-grader, I can tell you that the three seconds per coin you heard is inaccurate. While graders typically take a lot less time to grade coins than non graders do, their average time is quite a bit more than/multiples of three seconds.

 

And I don't know who or how someone came up with the 60% accuracy figure you quoted, either. Who makes such determinations?

[Danye West]

I have been hearing a lot about how coins are often graded incorrectly. Someone who went to the Colorado Springs grading class/seminar learned PCGS graders spent 3 SECONDS PER COIN and the grade accuracy is 60%! In my opinion, this coin was poorly graded by PCGS. Please tell me your opinion on the grade of this franklin, and guess the PCGS grade of this franklin. Grade revealed in 1 week. (Not my coin btw)

PS: Should this be in the spare a grade forum?

 

Dante

 

 

 

As an ex-grader, I can tell you that the three seconds per coin you heard is inaccurate. While graders typically take a lot less time to grade coins than non graders do, their average time is quite a bit more than/multiples of three seconds.

 

And I don't know who or how someone came up with the 60% accuracy figure you quoted, either. Who makes such determinations?

 

A guy at my local coin shop who (at the colorado springs seminal) learned this from an ex pcgs grader and big collector. I think he was also a former ANA president, but I don't personally know the teacher. Thats just what the coin dealer who took the class said he was told. I don't mean to bash grading services, I just laugh out loud at how off the grades are (although it might be the pictures fault).

Dante

[AHFreak]

If any laughing out loud is happening, it should be happening because you post a picture like that, and then expect accurate grades.... impossible.

[Danye West]

Was able to get somewhat better pictures. Does anyone want to change their guess?

 

 

[cpm9ball]

I have been hearing a lot about how coins are often graded incorrectly. Someone who went to the Colorado Springs grading class/seminar learned PCGS graders spent 3 SECONDS PER COIN and the grade accuracy is 60%! In my opinion, this coin was poorly graded by PCGS. Please tell me your opinion on the grade of this franklin, and guess the PCGS grade of this franklin. Grade revealed in 1 week. (Not my coin btw)

PS: Should this be in the spare a grade forum?

 

Dante

 

 

 

As an ex-grader, I can tell you that the three seconds per coin you heard is inaccurate. While graders typically take a lot less time to grade coins than non graders do, their average time is quite a bit more than/multiples of three seconds.

 

And I don't know who or how someone came up with the 60% accuracy figure you quoted, either. Who makes such determinations?

 

A guy at my local coin shop who (at the colorado springs seminal) learned this from an ex pcgs grader and big collector. I think he was also a former ANA president, but I don't personally know the teacher. Thats just what the coin dealer who took the class said he was told. I don't mean to bash grading services, I just laugh out loud at how off the grades are (although it might be the pictures fault).

Dante

 

Rumors are always a great source of information.

 

Chris

[Kurtdog]

I'll call it MS64. Think they'll call it MS66FBL.

[Danye West]

It's on the PCGS photograde site. AU58.

[AHFreak]

I was going to say MS63 once I saw the better pics.. then I saw your last post about it being a 58, It is not uncommon at all for a coin to either be "58" or "63"... the rub is there on that coin (very minimal, only on the high points, mint luster still intact), we just cant see that rub in the picture that is used.

[Kurtdog]

I think that AU58 is right. The hair back of the ear is flat, didn't catch that. I need more than 3 seconds, I guess.

[physics-fan3.14]

So are you saying that AU-58 is inaccurate? It is bleeding hard to judge AU vs. MS in hand - in pictures its next to impossible. What you say is inaccurately graded from a picture may be fairly obvious to an experienced grader in hand.

 

And their accuracy rate is a whole lot higher than any of ours (except Mark).

[Danye West]

I think that AU58 is right. The hair back of the ear is flat, didn't catch that. I need more than 3 seconds, I guess.

 

I am quite pleased to hear the experts tell me the three second grading is not true. And I also didn't realize how flat the hair was-guess I needed better pics . I can see how hard it is, especially from a photograph, to differentiate between AU and MS. I just wanted to see if anyone would be able to tell that this one was AU-I actually thought it was a 62 or so. Of course, it would be assumed to be a higher grade because it's common, and I probably wouldn't post a scrap silver coin.

 

 

[e1cnr]

having coin in hand always beats picture (which is hard to determine luster and eye appeal)

 

 

AU58 is a grade that many times looks better than the lower 60's as all it takes is a little rub/wear on the high points

 

I can see some on the eyebrow and upper lettering of the bell.

[Kurtdog]

Danye West, I think that's MS64 were it not for that slight rub. MS63 at worst. Just my opinion. His bell lines may have even been better defined in MS, who knows? That hair adjacent to the ear is built-up ever so slightly and you see that in the MS examples. Sharp coin. Just worked hard in the economy for a short spell.

[coinman1794]

I think that AU58 is right. The hair back of the ear is flat, didn't catch that. I need more than 3 seconds, I guess.

 

I am quite pleased to hear the experts tell me the three second grading is not true. And I also didn't realize how flat the hair was-guess I needed better pics . I can see how hard it is, especially from a photograph, to differentiate between AU and MS. I just wanted to see if anyone would be able to tell that this one was AU-I actually thought it was a 62 or so. Of course, it would be assumed to be a higher grade because it's common, and I probably wouldn't post a scrap silver coin.

 

 

Hold the coin in a grading light and twirl it until you see the dusting of rub on the high points. Sometimes these coins do grade as high as MS63, but only after being dipped. AU58 is usually the right grade on sliders, however.

[messydesk]

Rumors are always a great source of information.

Indeed. I read this on the internet, and not just here.

 

Anyway, chances are a dealer telling you that grading services like PCGS or NGC have a 60% accuracy rating is setting you up for being charged north of retail for an accurately graded coin that is the next higher grade "all day long" (just not today) and is "fed up with playing the grading service game" so much that they're willing to leave an allegedly sure thing $300 on the table over a $30 grading fee.

 

As for the Franklin, I didn't like it when you first posted it. Low MS or AU would have been my guess from the picture, but as has been said, it can be nearly impossible to differentiate those grades from pictures.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Yes, it's an AU-63

[Danye West]

I know the dealer well; I don't think they were trying to bait me into buying their stuff.

Dante

[orifdoc]

I know several dealers who are great guys and we're good friends. They constantly try to bait me into buying their wares. That's their J-O-B.

[AHFreak]

This is something I am just now starting to realize..... Up until now I have probably taken it more personally than I ever should have, (for better or worse). when it comes to a professional like dealing coins, my thought is that there are some dealers who literally cannot help themselves when it comes to a potential buyer, and their "sales process". There is something inside of them that drives them to maximize $ on each and every transaction..... be it friends, family, or whoever.... Maybe some would say its greed, maybe a salesman at heart... I guess its probably different for everyone. As far as I am coming to realize, they are just doing what they have trained themselves to do from forever ago. right, wrong, or indifferent.

[BillJones]

I would say that it was graded MS-65 although it might really be an AU-58. I think I see some rub on Franklin's head, but then again this a picture with the limitations that imposes.

 

When I was dealer, I used cherry pick under graded Franklin half dollars in the holders. I'd pay "bid" or a little less and sell them to Franklin collectors who were looking for under graded coins as I was. The trouble is I think a lot of these coins are bulk graded, and as a result, the graders don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the Mint State numbers. The grading needed be done quickly given the price paid.

[Danye West]

I also have seen higher ms franklins that on one side lack luster and appear to be worn... even on the obverse...why?

[e1cnr]

grease filled die, worn dies, weak strike, .....