Is CAC the answer for buying classic gold coins?

[MJ]

I think John Albanese is probably amongst the top three US gold experts on planet earth in regards to monkeyed with coins. He is also tough in regards to what he will sticker. His blessing ain't too shabby.

 

MJ

 

And I do not believe any one man is "god" and "infallible." Having spent some time going though auction boxes at major sales and shaking my head at some of the pieces that had green beans, I am not prepared to confer any deifications on anyone.

 

That is rather obvious or I guess it should be. I stand by my statement.

 

MJ

[coinman_23885]

[PCGS told me the coin needed to to through their restoration program which cost me 4% of their price guide price plus regrade, shipping back etc.. $150 or so. With NGC the problem which involves a quick dip in most cases would have been done gratis if they agreed the problem was on them.

 

I think someone may have misadvised you. If there is putty on the coin, it should be covered by the guarantee meaning that if restoration is the chosen option, it is on them, not you (absent the fee they charge you for reviewing your challenge to begins with).

[BillJones]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

[MJ]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

[MarkFeld]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

 

The same person who said "one man is god and infallible", and with which Bill took issue. In other words, no one.

[Matt_dac]

Well...from another novice who collects gold I echo the following:

 

>In other words, it becomes a question of just how much insurance is enough. Hands-down, the huge majority of buyers consider the NGC and PCGS certification to be ample "insurance". A sticker adds a tiny bit more insurance, and it becomes a question of just how much more you want to pay for what is in reality an incremental bit of extra insurance.<

 

I personally do not prioritize the cost associated with CAC coins. I do prioritize the cost (insurance) associated with NGC certification in my case. I was recently looking at another gold quarter eagle (Indian) for example. I can get MS61 for mid to high 300's. The same grade CAC coin was listed for $545 on Ebay. The extra $200 was not worth the cost to me personally.

 

All slabbed coins of the same grade are not created equal of course so this is where it's important to make sure you like the coin.

[MarkFeld]

Well...from another novice who collects gold I echo the following:

 

>In other words, it becomes a question of just how much insurance is enough. Hands-down, the huge majority of buyers consider the NGC and PCGS certification to be ample "insurance". A sticker adds a tiny bit more insurance, and it becomes a question of just how much more you want to pay for what is in reality an incremental bit of extra insurance.<

 

I personally do not prioritize the cost associated with CAC coins. I do prioritize the cost (insurance) associated with NGC certification in my case. I was recently looking at another gold quarter eagle (Indian) for example. I can get MS61 for mid to high 300's. The same grade CAC coin was listed for $545 on Ebay. The extra $200 was not worth the cost to me personally.

 

All slabbed coins of the same grade are not created equal of course so this is where it's important to make sure you like the coin.

 

The Ebay listing you referenced is not necessarily indicative of the typical premium for a CAC coin of that type, date and grade. At that grade and value level, the price differential is likely more about the seller than the sticker.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I am out of my league on high priced coins in general so will leave judgments on the "CAC" difference/advantage to others far more knowledgeable than myself. Personally I like semi-numismatics as being low risk, when you start dealing in the high end price scale the risks can be much greater. The advantage with the green bean though is accessibility of the CAC head based on reasonable problems as Bill Jones has shared, how a beaned high end coin not to his liking was reimbursed to Mr. Jones after review and agreement by them. Neither NGC or PCGS will offer money for their certified coins, CAC will, around $500 over non-CAC gem Saints and you can take that to the bank. And you can look at auction figures of beaned coins vs. non-beaned coins, certainly the auctioneer does not lose any bids with the bean and usually gains a healthy percentage.

 

On the guarantee of PCGS, you have to pay PCGS for them even to consider a guarantee submission and if they have to run it through "restoration" you will not be reimbursed the submission fee, with NGC you will and will not have to pay return shipping, quite a difference! As for the coin that I had to pay considerably more for the restoration that had AT or putty, I called several times for their recommended procedure and they were adamant that I had to pay for the "restoration" as it may have turned after it was graded. And the customer who bought if from me did not consider it a real "65" and said she was going to contact them on their guarantee on an overgraded coin. Then I got a call a month or so later from a PCGS legal representative on a "bad coin" but since he did not specifically reference the MS65 Saint I did not know what he wanted to make good on or be of service about.

[BillJones]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

 

The same person who said "one man is god and infallible", and with which Bill took issue. In other words, no one.

 

Except when one of us points to a specific example. The CAC people circle the wagons and attack the person disagrees with the CAC opinion.

 

I have had conversations with JA over the phone. He is a great guy. He has apologized for some of the stuff you CAC zealots have hurled at me. CAC does not need to be "right" 100% of the time to be a valid grading service. You could buy CAC approved coins and come out WAY ahead grading wise. The question, as always, is the price. How much is the CAC premium worth? That is what people who use CAC as their sole guide as to which coins they should buy have to ask themselves.

 

If you push me I can cite a gold sticker CAC piece for which I over paid. I came to this conclusion after I had owned the piece for a while. It's not JA's fault; it was my fault for a couple of reasons which include my idiosyncrasies as a collector. For me history can trump reason.

[Mark T]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

 

The same person who said "one man is god and infallible", and with which Bill took issue. In other words, no one.

 

Except when one of us points to a specific example. The CAC people circle the wagons and attack the person disagrees with the CAC opinion.

 

I have had conversations with JA over the phone. He is a great guy. He has apologized for some of the stuff you CAC zealots have hurled at me. CAC does not need to be "right" 100% of the time to be a valid grading service. You could buy CAC approved coins and come out WAY ahead grading wise. The question, as always, is the price. How much is the CAC premium worth? That is what people who use CAC as their sole guide as to which coins they should buy have to ask themselves.

 

If you push me I can cite a gold sticker CAC piece for which I over paid. I came to this conclusion after I had owned the piece for a while. It's not JA's fault; it was my fault for a couple of reasons which include my idiosyncrasies as a collector. For me history can trump reason.

 

 

The Anti CAC people do a pretty good job circling those wagons as well .

 

[MarkFeld]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

 

The same person who said "one man is god and infallible", and with which Bill took issue. In other words, no one.

 

Except when one of us points to a specific example. The CAC people circle the wagons and attack the person disagrees with the CAC opinion.

 

I have had conversations with JA over the phone. He is a great guy. He has apologized for some of the stuff you CAC zealots have hurled at me. CAC does not need to be "right" 100% of the time to be a valid grading service. You could buy CAC approved coins and come out WAY ahead grading wise. The question, as always, is the price. How much is the CAC premium worth? That is what people who use CAC as their sole guide as to which coins they should buy have to ask themselves.

 

If you push me I can cite a gold sticker CAC piece for which I over paid. I came to this conclusion after I had owned the piece for a while. It's not JA's fault; it was my fault for a couple of reasons which include my idiosyncrasies as a collector. For me history can trump reason.

 

Please show us examples of the "attacks" you speak of, or just a single example. And please also show us what we "zealots" have "hurled" at you?

 

I know I have accused you of using straw man arguments in the past. And you used one again today, when you posted "And I do not believe any one man is 'god' and 'infallible' ". Make that two of them today, as you also posted "If CAC so perfect...". No one here had even said those two things, to which you took exception.

 

You sometimes appear to feel attacked when someone disagrees with you.

[Hard Times]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

 

The same person who said "one man is god and infallible", and with which Bill took issue. In other words, no one.

 

Except when one of us points to a specific example. The CAC people circle the wagons and attack the person disagrees with the CAC opinion.

 

I have had conversations with JA over the phone. He is a great guy. He has apologized for some of the stuff you CAC zealots have hurled at me. CAC does not need to be "right" 100% of the time to be a valid grading service. You could buy CAC approved coins and come out WAY ahead grading wise. The question, as always, is the price. How much is the CAC premium worth? That is what people who use CAC as their sole guide as to which coins they should buy have to ask themselves.

 

If you push me I can cite a gold sticker CAC piece for which I over paid. I came to this conclusion after I had owned the piece for a while. It's not JA's fault; it was my fault for a couple of reasons which include my idiosyncrasies as a collector. For me history can trump reason.

 

Please show us examples of the "attacks" you speak of, or just a single example. And please also show us what we "zealots" have "hurled" at you?

 

I know I have accused you of using straw man arguments in the past. And you used one again today, when you posted "And I do not believe any one man is 'god' and 'infallible' ". Make that two of them today, as you also posted "If CAC so perfect...". No one here had even said those two things, to which you took exception.

 

You sometimes appear to feel attacked when someone disagrees with you.

 

Gosh Mark, as one example that Bill may or may not be referring to, I remember when I pointed out that CAC beaned a 63 and it got into a different TPG holder in a 64 and rebeaned. I just simply reported the facts in a thread and wanted an open, honest discussion about this inconsistency. When I persisted on this issue for discussion purposes when I believe no one came up with a good reason for such an inconsistency (on a Newman coin to boot so they KNEW the coin in a 63), and at some point in the thread you essentially told me to cease and desist on the issue with more unkind words simply because I was not convinced of your reason or anyone elses that accepts this to be reasonable (which it is not and thus shows some problems with the whole concept of CAC). This is just one example of as Bill noted. Even though you now claim you never said CAC was perfect, you Mark sure get defensive when some of us bring up their imperfections as shown in that thread I started, and here when Bill points it out. .

 

Funny thing is, I like CAC, I just believe the inconsistencies need to be discussed for educational reasons and like Bill, don't believe it to be the only opinion that matters.

 

Halftime, USA 1, Ghana 0

 

Best, HT

[MarkFeld]

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.

 

That is an interesting bit of speculation, and one that I am not willing to support. In other words you are ready to give CAC a veto power over the value of any coin that appears in a major auction that is worth $5,000 or more.

 

My earlier comments about "god" stand. If CAC so perfect, why don't they become a full fledged certification company and blow NGC and PCGS out the water? It's obvious that their advocates view the company as final word in all matters concerning grades.

 

To those who would like to flame me, please re-read the statement at the top of this post. This attitude is much too pervasive among the CAC adherents and cheerleaders, some of whom have a huge financial interest in the company.

 

Who said CAC is perfect? Who said they are infallible? Seems to me you are arguing with yourself. Who's winning?

 

MJ

 

The same person who said "one man is god and infallible", and with which Bill took issue. In other words, no one.

 

Except when one of us points to a specific example. The CAC people circle the wagons and attack the person disagrees with the CAC opinion.

 

I have had conversations with JA over the phone. He is a great guy. He has apologized for some of the stuff you CAC zealots have hurled at me. CAC does not need to be "right" 100% of the time to be a valid grading service. You could buy CAC approved coins and come out WAY ahead grading wise. The question, as always, is the price. How much is the CAC premium worth? That is what people who use CAC as their sole guide as to which coins they should buy have to ask themselves.

 

If you push me I can cite a gold sticker CAC piece for which I over paid. I came to this conclusion after I had owned the piece for a while. It's not JA's fault; it was my fault for a couple of reasons which include my idiosyncrasies as a collector. For me history can trump reason.

 

Please show us examples of the "attacks" you speak of, or just a single example. And please also show us what we "zealots" have "hurled" at you?

 

I know I have accused you of using straw man arguments in the past. And you used one again today, when you posted "And I do not believe any one man is 'god' and 'infallible' ". Make that two of them today, as you also posted "If CAC so perfect...". No one here had even said those two things, to which you took exception.

 

You sometimes appear to feel attacked when someone disagrees with you.

 

Gosh Mark, as one example that Bill may or may not be referring to, I remember when I pointed out that CAC beaned a 63 and it got into a different TPG holder in a 64 and rebeaned. I just simply reported the facts in a thread and wanted an open, honest discussion about this inconsistency. When I persisted on this issue for discussion purposes when I believe no one came up with a good reason for such an inconsistency (on a Newman coin to boot so they KNEW the coin in a 63), and at some point in the thread you essentially told me to cease and desist on the issue with more unkind words simply because I was not convinced of your reason or anyone elses that accepts this to be reasonable (which it is not and thus shows some problems with the whole concept of CAC). This is just one example of as Bill noted. Even though you now claim you never said CAC was perfect, you Mark sure get defensive when some of us bring up their imperfections as shown in that thread I started, and here when Bill points it out. .

 

Funny thing is, I like CAC, I just believe the inconsistencies need to be discussed for educational reasons and like Bill, don't believe it to be the only opinion that matters.

 

Halftime, USA 1, Ghana 0

 

Best, HT

 

As I recall, you seemed shocked and/or extremely disappointed at that example you posted. And told people that CAC was inconsistent or imperfect - something people already knew. If the thread were much shorter, I would read through it in order to be more specific in this reply.

 

I think you also assumed, as you seem to be doing again, now, that CAC would recognize the 63 coin as one they had seen and graded such and such, recently. But that is not necessarily the case.

 

If I used rude language, kindly point it out to me and I will apologize. On the other hand, I think you were quite rude at one point. Again, if the thread were much shorter, I would look it up.

 

I don't claim that (just) I never said CAC was perfect. But rather, that neither I nor anyone else said it was perfect. If they did, I sure didn't see it posted anywhere. Yet Bill chose to dispute the point that they were "so perfect".

 

I don't get defensive when people bring up CAC's imperfections. I get upset when people make false and unfair comments or accusations, and/or try to make their points in what I consider a disingenuous manner. And that applies to any subject, not just CAC and not just something related to coins.

[Matt_dac]

Well...from another novice who collects gold I echo the following:

 

>In other words, it becomes a question of just how much insurance is enough. Hands-down, the huge majority of buyers consider the NGC and PCGS certification to be ample "insurance". A sticker adds a tiny bit more insurance, and it becomes a question of just how much more you want to pay for what is in reality an incremental bit of extra insurance.<

 

I personally do not prioritize the cost associated with CAC coins. I do prioritize the cost (insurance) associated with NGC certification in my case. I was recently looking at another gold quarter eagle (Indian) for example. I can get MS61 for mid to high 300's. The same grade CAC coin was listed for $545 on Ebay. The extra $200 was not worth the cost to me personally.

 

All slabbed coins of the same grade are not created equal of course so this is where it's important to make sure you like the coin.

 

The Ebay listing you referenced is not necessarily indicative of the typical premium for a CAC coin of that type, date and grade. At that grade and value level, the price differential is likely more about the seller than the sticker.

 

Agreed.

I identified this one as a recent example of a premium difference based on the 1909 quarter eagles available on Ebay.

 

Here is another example with an even greater premium difference available today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-QUARTER-EAGLE-1909-INDIAN-2-50-NGC-MS61-CAC-INDIAN-HEAD-QUARTER-EAGLE-/350868076870?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item51b15df946

 

[michael]

Is CAC the answer for buying classic gold coins?

 

i think it can be a GREAT help--- PLEASE SEE MY REASONING BELOW

 

so lets start out with me saying this if you are spending thousands of dollars give or take 1,500; 2k and up on a classic gold coin

 

in general

 

first you need to look at and evaulate the coin YOURSELF AND IF YOU CANT DO THIS THEN DONT BUY EXPENSIVE GOLD COINS OR GET SOMEONE YOU TRUST TO LOOK AT IT FOR YOU AND IF THEY LIKE IT AND YOU UNDERSTAND WHY AND YOU LIKE IT HAVING IT NGC PCGS GRADED WITH A CAC STICKER JUST GIVES YOU MORE COMFORT THAT IF YOUR EYE LIKED IT AND YOUR ADVISOR YOU TRUST AND IS KNOWLEDGABLE IN GOLD COINS LIKED IT

 

AND NGC CAC PCGS CAC LIKED IT THEN IT is more than likely a good coin and the market will also like it if you need to sell it to get full value