Is CAC the answer for buying classic gold coins?

[mintcollector]

Hello,

 

As a somewhat newbie to collecting gold coins I was just wondering if the consensus was that less experienced buyers of classic US gold coins should only buy CAC certified coins. Is this true? I have read books on the subject and most have been very helpful, but I am wondering what one should look for when buying $1 and $2.50 gold coins? How can you tell if a coin was puttied or altered? Does the CAC guarantee assure that the coin is original in this aspect? Any advice is appreciated. Thank you.

 

 

[Deerefan8420]

I think you should buy what you want and not worry about stickers or labels or any of that other mess. Find the coins that YOU approve of and the coins that YOU think are solid for the grade. And I'm not bashing CAC or any of the other sticker companies. I think there are way too many people out there who are relying too heavily on a sticker to tell them what to think about a coin. Buy what YOU like. Buy what makes YOU happy. But don't buy solely on the given opinion of a fourth-party grading services.

[BillJones]

CAC is not foolproof. The very first CAC coin I bought was an 1825 $2.50 gold piece, an expensive coin. It was a PCGS graded MS-61, CAC approved coin. I bought it at auction based upon the grade assigned, CAC and the photos. The coin was sub-par for the grade. CAC did buy it from me, which is to their great credit, but my answer is no. You cannot blindly depend upon the CAC endorsement alone when you are buying coins. You need to look at the coins yourself, or if you don't have the expertise, get advice from an expert.

[MarkFeld]

There is no one "the answer". However, you can help yourself and/or obtain help in a number of ways.

 

Look at as many coins as you can.

 

Get the assistance of highly knowledgeable collectors and/or dealers.

 

Make sure the knowledgeable people above are also honest.

 

You don't have to like or buy a coin, just because NGC, PCGS or CAC grades it such and such.

 

All of them make mistakes.

 

Take your time and save your money, until such time as you feel much more comfortable in your ability to better assess coins.

[James_OldeTowne]

As a somewhat newbie to collecting gold coins I was just wondering if the consensus was that less experienced buyers of classic US gold coins should only buy CAC certified coins. Is this true?

There is no such "consensus". On the contrary, the enormous majority of "classic gold coins" being bought and sold are not stickered.

 

It sounds more like you've seen or read some kind of nutty hype somewhere about stickered gold, perhaps by someone who wants to gouge you on pricing ?

[MarkFeld]

As a somewhat newbie to collecting gold coins I was just wondering if the consensus was that less experienced buyers of classic US gold coins should only buy CAC certified coins. Is this true?

There is no such "consensus". On the contrary, the enormous majority of "classic gold coins" being bought and sold are not stickered.

 

Who told you there is some kind of "consensus"? If someone made such an absurd claim, I'd have doubts about any other claims they've made.

 

James where did the poster say he had heard there was such a consensus? He didn't and in fact, asked if there were such a consensus.

 

Also, the fact that the majority of coins are bought and sold a certain way, does not speak to whether that way is wise. I see a great many buyers spend a lot of money on sight-unseen purchases on eBay, including on horribly messed with and on counterfeit coins. Do you recommend coins be bought that way, simply because it is so widespread?

[mommam17]

mintcollector- If I was you, I would only buy CAC certified gold coins. Some will disagree with this. Also, if there is a problem found with a CAC coin, they will buy it back.

[Kurtdog]

Hello,

 

As a somewhat newbie to collecting gold coins I was just wondering if the consensus was that less experienced buyers of classic US gold coins should only buy CAC certified coins. Is this true? I have read books on the subject and most have been very helpful, but I am wondering what one should look for when buying $1 and $2.50 gold coins? How can you tell if a coin was puttied or altered? Does the CAC guarantee assure that the coin is original in this aspect? Any advice is appreciated. Thank you.

I don't think I need a book to tell me that if I'm concerned about being tricked into buying a puttied or altered coin a second opinion on the slab by an expert is probably a worthwhile investment.

[James_OldeTowne]

James where did the poster say he had heard there was such a consensus? He didn't and in fact, asked if there were such a consensus.

Why else would the subject come up?

 

Also, the fact that the majority of coins are bought and sold a certain way, does not speak to whether that way is wise.

The fact that the majority are bought without stickers suggests to me there is no consensus that they should be bought with stickers. There is no definite causal effect there, but the odds seem stacked.

 

I see a great many buyers spend a lot of money on sight-unseen purchases on eBay, including on horribly messed with and on counterfeit coins. Do you recommend coins be bought that way, simply because it is so widespread?

The seller asked about CAC, not eBay. He didn't ask about chicken soup, either. So I didn't respond with an opinion on chicken soup.

[DaveG]

We could probably give you more specific answers if you would tell us what specific "classic US gold coins" you're interested in.

 

Gold dollars and quarter eagles cover a lot of territory - which specific designs or types and what grades?

 

(Not that it's not fun to watch James and Mark squabble, but you may be more interested in coins than squabbling.)

[TonerGuy]

There is no one "the answer". However, you can help yourself and/or obtain help in a number of ways.

 

Look at as many coins as you can.

 

Get the assistance of highly knowledgeable collectors and/or dealers.

 

Make sure the knowledgeable people above are also honest.

 

You don't have to like or buy a coin, just because NGC, PCGS or CAC grades it such and such.

 

All of them make mistakes.

 

Take your time and save your money, until such time as you feel much more comfortable in your ability to better asses coins.

 

If there were "Golden Rules of Coin Collecting" I would nominate this post.

 

This obviously applies to every type of coin.

 

Mark - you should really have a blog teaching newbs and even vets the basics of coin collecting...

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Even for experts, it is not always apparent when a coin is puttied until it turns in the holder. CAC is not foolproof. That's why a lot of people buying rare gold seek out coins in older holders under the theory that if the coins were puttied, the coins would likely have turned by now. Others like coins in PCGS Secure Plus holders that have been through the "sniffer" which uses chemical spectroscopy methods that should reveal putty and other chemicals on the surface of the coin. CAC does offer a buyout option.

 

For common pieces worth less than $1500, I think it is probably overkill. Show me a rare 5 or 6+ digit valued coin, and I might feel differently.

[MarkFeld]

James where did the poster say he had heard there was such a consensus? He didn't and in fact, asked if there were such a consensus.

Why else would the subject come up?

 

Also, the fact that the majority of coins are bought and sold a certain way, does not speak to whether that way is wise.

The fact that the majority are bought without stickers suggests to me there is no consensus that they should be bought with stickers. There is no definite causal effect there, but the odds seem stacked.

 

I see a great many buyers spend a lot of money on sight-unseen purchases on eBay, including on horribly messed with and on counterfeit coins. Do you recommend coins be bought that way, simply because it is so widespread?

The seller asked about CAC, not eBay. He didn't ask about chicken soup, either. So I didn't respond with an opinion on chicken soup.

 

Among other possible reasons, the question might have come up, simply because he was considering relying upon CAC. So he was curious as to whether there was a consensus among others in that regard.

 

I brought up eBay because part of your initial reply made reference to what a large number of buyers typically do. And I believe that eBay serves as ample proof that what a large number of buyers typically do is not necessarily the way to go.

[mintcollector]

Hello all,

 

First, I appreciate all the replies as this thread has been most beneficial. I know that my original post was somewhat generic in nature, but I do not have my mind set on a certain year or issue in regards to the gold coins I am interested in; only the fact that it is a $1.00 or $2.50 classic gold coin for a type set I have been working on for some time. Ironically, the set would probably be finished by now, but every time I attempt to move on to another coin series or type I usually end up adding another semi key or key coin to my collection from a series I already have started.

 

It should also be noted that I do not think it would be too ethical to post a scan of the coins I am currently considering direct from a dealer's website. This limits how I can describe certain aspects of the coins I may consider since year and mintmark are not discriminating factors at present time. Narrowing down my choices as a newer buyer of classic gold type coins I wasn't sure if CAC would eliminate any risk associated with the purchase of doctored or puttied coins of this nature. I thank you for any and all help in this regard.

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Hello all,

 

First, I appreciate all the replies as this thread has been most beneficial. I know that my original post was somewhat generic in nature, but I do not have my mind set on a certain year or issue in regards to the gold coins I am interested in; only the fact that it is a $1.00 or $2.50 classic gold coin for a type set I have been working on for some time. Ironically, the set would probably be finished by now, but every time I attempt to move on to another coin series or type I usually end up adding another semi key or key coin to my collection from a series I already have started.

 

It should also be noted that I do not think it would be too ethical to post a scan of the coins I am currently considering direct from a dealer's website. This limits how I can describe certain aspects of the coins I may consider since year and mintmark are not discriminating factors at present time. Narrowing down my choices as a newer buyer of classic gold type coins I wasn't sure if CAC would eliminate any risk associated with the purchase of doctored or puttied coins of this nature. I thank you for any and all help in this regard.

 

 

 

 

I believe that CAC would eliminate considerable (but not all) risk of the type you inquired about.

[Mark T]

Hello all,

 

First, I appreciate all the replies as this thread has been most beneficial. I know that my original post was somewhat generic in nature, but I do not have my mind set on a certain year or issue in regards to the gold coins I am interested in; only the fact that it is a $1.00 or $2.50 classic gold coin for a type set I have been working on for some time. Ironically, the set would probably be finished by now, but every time I attempt to move on to another coin series or type I usually end up adding another semi key or key coin to my collection from a series I already have started.

 

It should also be noted that I do not think it would be too ethical to post a scan of the coins I am currently considering direct from a dealer's website. This limits how I can describe certain aspects of the coins I may consider since year and mintmark are not discriminating factors at present time. Narrowing down my choices as a newer buyer of classic gold type coins I wasn't sure if CAC would eliminate any risk associated with the purchase of doctored or puttied coins of this nature. I thank you for any and all help in this regard.

 

 

 

 

I believe that CAC would eliminate considerable (but not all) risk of the type you inquired about.

 

Let me add that CAC would eliminate considerable risk for any gold coin. If you know what to look for and can see the coin in hand then I consider the CAC sticker an added bonus. But if you are buying sight unseen that CAC sticker does give you the confidence that one of the best in the business has seen and approved it.

[DaveG]

mintcollector,

 

Part of the problem is that when I read "classic" US gold, I first think of pre-1834 gold, which usually has very different issues to consider compared to Liberty Head quarter eagles or Indian Head quarter eagles.

 

Also, it may help if you're able to say whether you're interested in circulated gold (such as XF or AU) or MS gold (such as MS-61 or MS-63).

 

I would think there'd be very different issues to consider regarding CAC or putty when thinking about different types or grades of gold.

[jom]

There is no one "the answer". However, you can help yourself and/or obtain help in a number of ways.

 

Look at as many coins as you can.

 

Get the assistance of highly knowledgeable collectors and/or dealers.

 

Make sure the knowledgeable people above are also honest.

 

You don't have to like or buy a coin, just because NGC, PCGS or CAC grades it such and such.

 

All of them make mistakes.

 

Take your time and save your money, until such time as you feel much more comfortable in your ability to better asses coins.

 

To answer the question of the "gold coin newbie" OP I'd can only recommend reading THIS post above my Mark.

 

The one thing, if I had to do it all over again, is try to avoid buying anything until you follow the above advice. CAC, no CAC, PCGS, NGC blah blah blah...it makes no difference if you make the effort to learn as much as you can.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

There is no one "the answer". However, you can help yourself and/or obtain help in a number of ways.

 

Look at as many coins as you can.

 

Get the assistance of highly knowledgeable collectors and/or dealers.

 

Make sure the knowledgeable people above are also honest.

 

You don't have to like or buy a coin, just because NGC, PCGS or CAC grades it such and such.

 

All of them make mistakes.

 

Take your time and save your money, until such time as you feel much more comfortable in your ability to better asses coins.

 

If there were "Golden Rules of Coin Collecting" I would nominate this post.

 

This obviously applies to every type of coin.

 

Mark - you should really have a blog teaching newbs and even vets the basics of coin collecting...

 

 

 

Thanks Michael, I appreciate that.

[coinman_23885]

Because this is also germane to the OP's initial question, this thread also illustrates my concerns about the market effects of CAC. To be clear, I think CAC is wonderful and is a useful educational tool (and I submit myself), but I also have concerns about the way that some collectors are treating non-stickered coins. It seems that problem coins that are low end "C" coins for the grade (i.e. those that are not suppose to have a CAC sticker) are often selling for less than "A" and even "B" grade coins for the grade below even though the "C" coin should be, in theory superior, even if it is not high end for the grade on the holder. To me, that is nonsensical and I don't think it is sustainable long term. Case and point, I attempted to sell some 1850s mint state quarter eagles on the BST forums here and on the PCGS forums, and no one had interest anywhere near the prices that I asked. I submitted the pieces to CAC and after sticking, CAC (a coin DEALER) paid me either my asking price (at the time before the pieces stickered) or close to it if my memory is correct. The coins were the same quality before CAC stickered them. IMHO, collectors should note the recent CAC advertisement posted here that it is the quality of the coin and not the holder or sticker that matters. By confining yourself to CAC only coins OP, you are potentially missing out on a lot of nice pieces.

 

Edited: To be clear, I am saying that the absence of a CAC sticker does not mean that the piece is a problem coin, and a 65 C coin is of higher quality than a 64 A or B coin.

[James_OldeTowne]

Hello all,

 

First, I appreciate all the replies as this thread has been most beneficial. I know that my original post was somewhat generic in nature, but I do not have my mind set on a certain year or issue in regards to the gold coins I am interested in; only the fact that it is a $1.00 or $2.50 classic gold coin for a type set I have been working on for some time. Ironically, the set would probably be finished by now, but every time I attempt to move on to another coin series or type I usually end up adding another semi key or key coin to my collection from a series I already have started.

 

It should also be noted that I do not think it would be too ethical to post a scan of the coins I am currently considering direct from a dealer's website. This limits how I can describe certain aspects of the coins I may consider since year and mintmark are not discriminating factors at present time. Narrowing down my choices as a newer buyer of classic gold type coins I wasn't sure if CAC would eliminate any risk associated with the purchase of doctored or puttied coins of this nature. I thank you for any and all help in this regard.

I believe that CAC would eliminate considerable (but not all) risk of the type you inquired about.

Let me add that CAC would eliminate considerable risk for any gold coin. If you know what to look for and can see the coin in hand then I consider the CAC sticker an added bonus. But if you are buying sight unseen that CAC sticker does give you the confidence that one of the best in the business has seen and approved it.

It's impossible to quantify to what degree a sticker would reduce your risk, but the truth is that the risk is, in my experience (and we probably see on average hundreds of gold coins per week in the store) very low to begin with. While there is a considerable amount of hype regarding puttied and doctored gold, depending on your series of interest, the percentage of doctored coins is really very low compared to the number of coins certified.

 

In other words, it becomes a question of just how much insurance is enough. Hands-down, the huge majority of buyers consider the NGC and PCGS certification to be ample "insurance". A sticker adds a tiny bit more insurance, and it becomes a question of just how much more you want to pay for what is in reality an incremental bit of extra insurance.

 

So as an example, if a dealer offers you a certified gold coin for $1500, and an identical certified gold coin with a sticker at $1505 , is that worth it? It might well be worth an extra $5. But if he wants $1900 with a sticker, you'll need to decide whether the sticker is as important to you as $400.

 

Ultimately, we cannot make your decision for you, but can only present our own experiences, hoping they give you some insight. Be VERY WARY if anyone is trying to tell you that you should only buy stickered gold - find out what that seller's motive is and whether he will correspondingly pay YOU the same premium if you need to sell it back to him in the future. (Naturally, this caution is true of any similar situation besides stickers.)

[MJ]

I think John Albanese is probably amongst the top three US gold experts on planet earth in regards to monkeyed with coins. He is also tough in regards to what he will sticker. His blessing ain't too shabby.

 

MJ

[Mark T]

About 6 years ago I purchased 3 PCGS Half Eagles from Heritage and Ebay sight unseen. When submitted to CAC they were rejected because of putty. I had been out of the hobby for 20 plus years so I had little experience with gold and even less to determine if the coin was puttied.

Prior to the CAC submission I could tell something was definitely off with the MS 61 coin, the MS 62 coin did not look right either. I could not see the problems on the MS 63 coin. The bottom line is the CAC sticker takes a substantial amount of risk out of buying sight unseen. Sometimes putty is not that easy to see.

James your distaste for CAC is obvious. Yes you pay a premium when you buy a CAC coin however most likely you would get it back when you sell it. Sometimes the premiums seem to get a bit crazy and no one should blindly pay a huge premium just because it has the CAC sticker.

Mintcollector – Buying CAC gold is among the safest ways to purchase sight unseen , consider the sticker and premium you pay as insurance. Heritage has a lot of price information – you can use that as a comparison of prices for coins with and without CAC stickers.

 

[Stephon-migration]

I would always go with CAC, even if it is not foolproof. What it offers me is that there have been multiple sets of eyes that have looked at the coin and that despite the potential for human error, there is greater confidence in the grade in the NGC or PCGS holder that my coin is in. Still, I think it is important to buy the coin and not the slab or CAC sticker.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I would always go with CAC, even if it is not foolproof. What it offers me is that there have been multiple sets of eyes that have looked at the coin and that despite the potential for human error, there is greater confidence in the grade in the NGC or PCGS holder that my coin is in. Still, I think it is important to buy the coin and not the slab or CAC sticker.

 

.....If the knowledge of doctored gold is at a level to be confident in buying just the coin and not the slab or CAC sticker. I would venture that is not a high percentage of persons, whether astute in gold coin collecting or not.

[BillJones]

I think John Albanese is probably amongst the top three US gold experts on planet earth in regards to monkeyed with coins. He is also tough in regards to what he will sticker. His blessing ain't too shabby.

 

MJ

 

And I do not believe any one man is "god" and "infallible." Having spent some time going though auction boxes at major sales and shaking my head at some of the pieces that had green beans, I am not prepared to confer any deifications on anyone.

[RWB]

Aren't those problems covered by the PCGS and NGC guarantees?

[BillJones]

Aren't those problems covered by the PCGS and NGC guarantees?

 

They are to an extent, but getting redress for the problem can take time. I just finished with one that took about two months to get resolved.

 

The CAC thing really has more to do with how appropriate the assigned grade is than the putty and alteration problem. I think that CAC would step up if they endorsed a gold coin that had been puttied, but the grading services are really more in line for covering that problem.

[MarkFeld]

I think John Albanese is probably amongst the top three US gold experts on planet earth in regards to monkeyed with coins. He is also tough in regards to what he will sticker. His blessing ain't too shabby.

 

MJ

 

And I do not believe any one man is "god" and "infallible." Having spent some time going though auction boxes at major sales and shaking my head at some of the pieces that had green beans, I am not prepared to confer any deifications on anyone.

 

And I have not heard a single person claim that he was.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Aren't those problems covered by the PCGS and NGC guarantees?

 

The NGC guarantee is better than the PCGS one. I bought a gem Saint in a PCGS holder from a customer that had a minor issue that turned out to be AT or putty. PCGS told me the coin needed to to through their restoration program which cost me 4% of their price guide price plus regrade, shipping back etc.. $150 or so. With NGC the problem which involves a quick dip in most cases would have been done gratis if they agreed the problem was on them.

 

At CAC it isn't just Mr. Albanese who does the reviewing but Mr. Wexler and other very sharp eyes. It is probably telling when you see a coin worth $5K or more without the bean at auction, which very likely has been submitted for review by them.