Interesting ATS Thread

[MarkFeld]

Yes, I believe in John Albanese. Happy, I said it again. To me, this isn't about them. It's about doing the right thing. Was he obligated, no, but I think he should of said something.

 

 

Rick did say something. He said it publicly after the coin did not sell and raised his concerns so that we could all learn and not have problem coins hidden behind a veil of the power brokers. Kudos for Rick for doing the right thing to insure that many would be educated. (thumbs u

 

Best, HT

 

What if the coin had sold to a buyer who was unaware of Rick's analysis?

 

Do you think speaking up publicly after the sale was a better way to handle it than speaking to Legend, PCGS and CAC, prior to the sale? Personally, I feel that each option had pros and cons.

[mommam17]

I think speaking to Legend or PCGS at lot viewing, when the problem was found would be the way to go, not after the auction in a public forum.

 

[PerryHall]

I think speaking to Legend or PCGS at lot viewing, when the problem was found would be the way to go, not after the auction in a public forum.

Agree. I wonder if the buyer can return this coin now that it's been established that the slab is mislabeled.

[Hard Times]

I think speaking to Legend or PCGS at lot viewing, when the problem was found would be the way to go, not after the auction in a public forum.

 

While as Mark said, each way of doing this had its pros and cons. I believe that keeping it under wraps would have not resulted in an important educational moment for many which is what happened when Rick made this public. Hence it was the right thing to do. The buyer? Fact is, no buyer bought it. Had that happened, Rick's approach after the auction might have been different. Only Rick knows that.

 

I am not a fan of the power brokers hiding issues from the rest of us so that they can avoid embarrassment and so that they can continue to maximize their profits. Secrecy is never good for anyone who wants to learn and the more buyers know, the better it is for selling coins to buyers so not sure why all of the kerfluffle is happening here for Rick making this public. I hear all the time how JA formed CAC to help get rid of problem coins and over graded coins in TPG holders. Well this was an educational moment about such issues that JA should embrace in such a case as by making this public.

 

For those of you who want to back the triumvirate all at costs, including secrecy that keeps the rest of us from learning, no worries, you have a right to your opinion. I just want to learn more, that is why I am here and thanks to Rick for providing this opportunity.

 

Best, HT

[mommam17]

You would of had the same learning experience if it was brought out BEFORE the auction and discussed in a public forum, rather than after.

[brg5658]

So if this coin went unsold in the auction, did Legend-Morphy also "scrub" their website of it having ever existed? Or can someone link to the coin in question please? I don't see it on their archive catalog for the May 22 sale.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

Too bad they zapped the PCGS forum thread.

 

I find it interesting that a company owned and operated by someone so heII-bent on "outing the coin doctors" chose to allow a coin through her auction that had problems (even though unsold). I thought she was omniscient in spotting and outing all forms of altered coins -- at least that's the aura she projects -- that's she is "all knowing" of all things numismatic. BUT, it's no surprise that what she actually does is lean on the opinions of PCGS and CAC.

 

If you want to truly stop coin doctoring how about you teach the "big boys" how to spot such problems and not put them in plastic with shiny stickers to begin with? And, no, I'm not implying NGC is infallible -- but the company in question is a (self proclaimed) dealer in almost solely PCGS coins.

 

Just a thought...now, carry on.

[Coinbuf]

I think speaking to Legend or PCGS at lot viewing, when the problem was found would be the way to go, not after the auction in a public forum.

 

While as Mark said, each way of doing this had its pros and cons. I believe that keeping it under wraps would have not resulted in an important educational moment for many which is what happened when Rick made this public. Hence it was the right thing to do. The buyer? Fact is, no buyer bought it. Had that happened, Rick's approach after the auction might have been different. Only Rick knows that.

 

I am not a fan of the power brokers hiding issues from the rest of us so that they can avoid embarrassment and so that they can continue to maximize their profits. Secrecy is never good for anyone who wants to learn and the more buyers know, the better it is for selling coins to buyers so not sure why all of the kerfluffle is happening here for Rick making this public. I hear all the time how JA formed CAC to help get rid of problem coins and over graded coins in TPG holders. Well this was an educational moment about such issues that JA should embrace in such a case as by making this public.

 

For those of you who want to back the triumvirate all at costs, including secrecy that keeps the rest of us from learning, no worries, you have a right to your opinion. I just want to learn more, that is why I am here and thanks to Rick for providing this opportunity.

 

Best, HT

 

I am not going to say that what Rick did was right or wrong as that is up to each individual to decide. However imo it would have been better to bring this to the attention of Legend and PCGS when he discovered it. Once that was done Rick could have pointed it out in public and all would be good. In my scenario everyone wins as the TPG and auction company was alerted to the issue first and the masses would not miss out on the knowledge of this coin's issues.

[Kurtdog]

I find it interesting that a company owned and operated by someone so heII-bent on "outing the coin doctors" chose to allow a coin through her auction that had problems (even though unsold). I thought she was omniscient in spotting and outing all forms of altered coins -- at least that's the aura she projects -- that's she is "all knowing" of all things numismatic.

I think these boys and girls ought to conspire again and file another federal complaint against the coin doctors. It's been, what, four or five years, since the last time? If they don't protect us from the coin doctors, who will, did you ever think of that? For one, I don't want to get tricked into buying an AT coin, just because I'm uneducated, and I think I like it, that's no reason. I hate AT coins!

[coinman_23885]

If they don't protect us from the coin doctors, who will, did you ever think of that? For one, I don't want to get tricked into buying an AT coin, just because I'm uneducated, and I think I like it, that's no reason. I hate AT coins!

 

Don't you hate all toned coins? You commonly refer to even attractive toning as tarnish which usually has a negative connotation. It would seem easy enough to avoid AT if you don't buy toned coins.

[JKK]

 

It was a Flying Eagle cent, not a copper nickel cent. But each type can tone. And he was speaking of a carbon spot, which he said had been removed.

 

Indeed. I have spectacular proof that Cu/Ni can and will tone, straight from you. You sold me one, a gorgeous 1891 NGC PR-65 LHN. Subtle rainbow toning with an emphasis on rose. One of the most worthwhile purchases in my numismatic lifetime.

[WoodenJefferson]

'Whistle blowers' are never ever treated fairly, no matter how the information was disseminated, someone somewhere will eventually lobby a complaint.

 

The question I have, will this ever be resolved to satisfy the hobby requirements?

 

Me, I've never even considered buying a 20K coin so I'm not really that concerned if it stays with the current label or not...I've always considered high dollar rare coins to get a 'pass' when it comes to putting on a realistic grade anyways, it's the nature of the beast.

 

ie; The Adams-Carter 1804 dollar is currently graded Proof-58 by PCGS, but in the past it was graded Proof-50 by NGC and before that Proof-45 by PCGS. That's a huge fluctuation.

[brg5658]

If they don't protect us from the coin doctors, who will, did you ever think of that? For one, I don't want to get tricked into buying an AT coin, just because I'm uneducated, and I think I like it, that's no reason. I hate AT coins!

 

Don't you hate all toned coins? You commonly refer to even attractive toning as tarnish which usually has a negative connotation. It would seem easy enough to avoid AT if you don't buy toned coins.

 

I'm pretty sure his post was whole sarcasm.

[Kurtdog]

If they don't protect us from the coin doctors, who will, did you ever think of that? For one, I don't want to get tricked into buying an AT coin, just because I'm uneducated, and I think I like it, that's no reason. I hate AT coins!

Don't you hate all toned coins? You commonly refer to even attractive toning as tarnish which usually has a negative connotation. It would seem easy enough to avoid AT if you don't buy toned coins.

No, I like NT coins. I just hate AT coins. And I'm not sure yet if I like or hate QT coins. But if they're MA coins, I like those, too.

[coinman_23885]

You would of had the same learning experience if it was brought out BEFORE the auction and discussed in a public forum, rather than after.

 

If he had publicly disclosed this before given his interest in the piece as a potential pattern, he would have been accused of impropriety.

 

For whatever it us worth, THANK YOU Mr. Snow. It's sad that no good deed goes unpunished.

[coinman_23885]

If they don't protect us from the coin doctors, who will, did you ever think of that? For one, I don't want to get tricked into buying an AT coin, just because I'm uneducated, and I think I like it, that's no reason. I hate AT coins!

 

Don't you hate all toned coins? You commonly refer to even attractive toning as tarnish which usually has a negative connotation. It would seem easy enough to avoid AT if you don't buy toned coins.

 

I'm pretty sure his post was whole sarcasm.

 

As was mine.

[Hard Times]

I think speaking to Legend or PCGS at lot viewing, when the problem was found would be the way to go, not after the auction in a public forum.

 

While as Mark said, each way of doing this had its pros and cons. I believe that keeping it under wraps would have not resulted in an important educational moment for many which is what happened when Rick made this public. Hence it was the right thing to do. The buyer? Fact is, no buyer bought it. Had that happened, Rick's approach after the auction might have been different. Only Rick knows that.

 

I am not a fan of the power brokers hiding issues from the rest of us so that they can avoid embarrassment and so that they can continue to maximize their profits. Secrecy is never good for anyone who wants to learn and the more buyers know, the better it is for selling coins to buyers so not sure why all of the kerfluffle is happening here for Rick making this public. I hear all the time how JA formed CAC to help get rid of problem coins and over graded coins in TPG holders. Well this was an educational moment about such issues that JA should embrace in such a case as by making this public.

 

For those of you who want to back the triumvirate all at costs, including secrecy that keeps the rest of us from learning, no worries, you have a right to your opinion. I just want to learn more, that is why I am here and thanks to Rick for providing this opportunity.

 

Best, HT

 

I am not going to say that what Rick did was right or wrong as that is up to each individual to decide. However imo it would have been better to bring this to the attention of Legend and PCGS when he discovered it. Once that was done Rick could have pointed it out in public and all would be good. In my scenario everyone wins as the TPG and auction company was alerted to the issue first and the masses would not miss out on the knowledge of this coin's issues.

 

Had it worked out that way, that would have been a good approach for all. Rick may have his reasons why he waited.

 

Best, HT

[michael]

i have known rick snow for close to 20 years

 

and from my own perspective up down, left right, before after................. etc.etc.

 

RICK DID THE RIGHT THING

 

KUDOS TO YOU RICK FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING (thumbs u

[$ilverHawk]

i have known rick snow for close to 20 years

 

and from my own perspective up down, left right, before after................. etc.etc.

 

RICK DID THE RIGHT THING

 

KUDOS TO YOU RICK FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING (thumbs u

 

I find the debate on whether a well recognized expert should disclose information about a coin offered for auction by a well known auction company rather moot.

 

Legend Morphy, as the auction agent, has the sole onus to provide full and complete information regarding the numismatic condition of the coin. Granted, interpretations of a coins condition are open to opinions, but those interpretations should be stated as opinions and not glossed over as hyperbole regarding the condition of the coin. (See auction listing).The debate regarding should the well recognized expert have contacted the listing agent and the TPG before publicly posting his opinion is ludicrous. Does he shoot down the auction and open himself up to criticism for influencing an auction, or does he remain silent until the auction is over and seeks to educate the collecting community? Interesting conundrum.

 

Yes, I like the fact that Rick Snow brought this situation into the light of day. Don't collect FE's but this thread has been very informative.

 

 

Carl

[gmarguli]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. Get a second opinion (CAC) and have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

[michael]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

(thumbs u

 

same exact thing i was thinking too but i could not have put it in words so artfully as greg

 

 

 

[michael]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

of any post on this thread the above is the ultimate all time best EVER

 

SUMS IT UP TO A TEE......................................

[FishyOne]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. Get a second opinion (CAC) and have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

But below your avatar is says, "Slightly Evil".

 

 

 

 

P.S. All 9 pages have been interesting reading and with regard to RS disclosing this information after the auction is fine - especially in light of the lot going unsold.

[brg5658]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. Get a second opinion (CAC) and have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

Good to see you here Greg!

[EVillageProwler]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. Get a second opinion (CAC) and have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

Good to see you here Greg!

 

I vote that he changes his title from "slightly evil" to "rapier wit"

[jom]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. Get a second opinion (CAC) and have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

 

jom

[Hard Times]

I missed all the excitement.

 

Oh well, the one thing that we should all live by is never buy a coin from an auction sight unseen. Get a second opinion (CAC) and have an expert (Legend) look at the coin beforehand and represent you for a few extra percent. That way you will be steered clear of less than desirable or problem coins. (thumbs u

 

 

jom

 

 

I don't get it!

 

Best, HT

[originalisbest]

Looks like the thread from ATS being discussed has been deleted. I guess Laura or her business partner TDN complained about it. It's too bad because I found it to be both interesting and informative. Hopefully Rick didn't get banned but if he did he is certainly welcome to call this place home.

 

Why do you think Laura or TDN had anything to do with that thread ATS being deleted? After all, it was Snow who was the object of a push/pull argument. Why isn't it even more likely that Snow asked for the thread to get deleted? After all, he had all the risk and was no longer really making his point.

 

And, why do you think Snow got banned? What could he possibly have done to warrant that?

 

You don't really care to make any effort at impartiality, do you? Sheesh!!!

 

EVP

 

Hello, pot (with regard to impartiality and TDN/Legend-related topics)

[leeg]

Good thread here and read some of the one ATS.

 

I have purchased coins via an image. When the coin arrived it had some problems. Such as hair or a piece of food inside the holder. One of the problems purchasing by images alone. I sent the coin back to the grading service under the guarantee. The grading service fixed the problem and returned the coin or kept it and reimbursed me for it.

 

My opinion is that whoever finds the problem is responsible for fixing it. I would have let Legend know about the problem as soon as it was discovered. Laura may not have known about the problems with this coin. Did she look at every coin in the sale? Whoever wrote the Lot Description should have been knowledgeable enough to see the problems and tell Laura about it. Hopefully she would have removed the lot for it would have been too late to change the description at the point that Rick noticed it.

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

 

[PerryHall]

Good thread here and read some of the one ATS.

 

I have purchased coins via an image. When the coin arrived it had some problems. Such as hair or a piece of food inside the holder. One of the problems purchasing by images alone. I sent the coin back to the grading service under the guarantee. The grading service fixed the problem and returned the coin or kept it and reimbursed me for it.

 

My opinion is that whoever finds the problem is responsible for fixing it. I would have let Legend know about the problem as soon as it was discovered. Laura may not have known about the problems with this coin. Did she look at every coin in the sale? Whoever wrote the Lot Description should have been knowledgeable enough to see the problems and tell Laura about it. Hopefully she would have removed the lot for it would have been too late to change the description at the point that Rick noticed it.

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

Did these slabs with food or hair carry the CAC sticker?

 

 

[CoinZip]

In my humble opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even the TPG company's.................