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1969-1970 Roosevelt Dime Transitional Varieties

15 posts in this topic

In the March/April issue of CONECA's ErrorScope, Tanay Wakhare wrote an article about the little discussed transitional reverse varieties of the 1969 and 1970 Roosevelt dimes.


What the heck is that?


Well, basically there are two reverse types found on 1969-P, 1970-P, and 1970-D Roosevelt dimes, As Wakhare explains in the article:


"The regular reverse (RDV-001) features the torch in low relief, while the transitional reverse is RDV-002; it's obvious to the naked eye since it has two deep valleys in the torch flame. RDV-002 was used on business strikes from 1971 onwards and proof strikes from 1968 onwards, so it's conceivable that a proof reverse could have been used for business strike dimes."


Wakhare continues to say that RDV-002 is listed are "rare" on the 1969-P, 1970-P, and 1970-D dimes by CONECA; however, reports that she was able to find several from a very small sample. From a sample of 47 coins, Wakhare found twenty-two 1969-P, 1970-P, and 1970-D Roosevelts with RDV-002 total.


I recently purchased two rolls of uncirculated 1970-D Roosevelts and thought that I would also take a look to see what I could find. From a sample of twenty-three 1970-D dimes, Wakhare found 15 with RDV-002, which accounted for 65% of the sample. But here's what I came up with from those two rolls:


1970-D Dimes Roll #1

There were zero coins with RDV-002. However, I did find a Cherrypicker's DDR -- FS-802 MDS (also CONECA DDR-004). I actually have this coin for sale here


1970-D Dimes Roll #2

From this roll I found eleven coins with RDV-002, which accounted for 22% of the roll. However, only two of these had nice strikes. The remaining nine have heavy to very heavy metal flow lines around their perimeters on both sides. One of the two nice examples is photographed below.


I must admit that I am unsure whether or not these rolls have been searched before. The lack of any RDV-002 in the first roll makes me a bit suspicious; however, the variety might be a bit too obscure for most people to pay any attention.


And, as I mentioned, there was a DDR in the first roll; however, the coins could still have been previously searched and the DDR overlooked. Both rolls came from the same eBay seller and in the same coin wrapper pattern. Here is a photo of one of the rolls before I opened it up: http://oi59.tinypic.com/nq1utg.jpg


A sample size of 100 coins is still too small to come to any definitive conclusion on how common RDV-002 is on the 1970-D Roosevelt. And while my sample didn't produce as many RDV-002 as Wakhare's sample on a percentage basis, I also don't believe that this transitional variety is very rare -- on the 1970-D at least. Rarely discussed, but not "rare". What seems harder to find is a mint state 1970-D with RDV-002 and with a good strike.


Check out Tanay Wakhare's article in ErrorScope for more on the 1969 and 1970 Roosevelt dime transitional varieties. I can't find the article published anywhere online. But you can get back issues of ErrorScope from CONECA.


More: http://www.error-ref.com/transitional-reverse-1969--1970-dime-with-proof-re.html



See more journals by Mr. Smith Guesser

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On the pics from the second roll...

I know the flame has their 2 (medium strike) flow lines but---the base of--- OF AMERICA looks weak to me and still may be considered a 001 weak strike :JMO". Did you find a coin or two with good veins and nice lettering ???



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Hey Luke,

I know that I'm probably the last person you ever thought would reply to a post about Roosevelt dimes, but this is a variety I actually look for in my change for resale purposes. I think you're correct in your thoughts that these varieties aren't rare. I find them with some regularity when I receive dimes of this age in my change, so I'd say they're scarce but not rare in terms of absolute rarity. However, in mint state, I have no clue as I do not collect Roosevelt dimes and never did in my time as a collector of US coins. In circulated condition, the prices don't seem to be too high, a couple dollars a piece. I actually wait until I assemble a roll of them to sell or trade them. But who knows? Ike varieties have taken off in the past few years, and I can remember a time when it looked like that would never happen. But it did. It will be interesting to see what your further research into this turns up!



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Hey Rick, it could be the way the light is on the photos. They're definitely RDV-002. I think Wakhare already said it, but the difference really is noticeable to the naked eye with magnification.


Photos really don't seem show the depth of the difference. But just compare the flame of any Roosevelt 1946 to 1968 to any dime dated 1971 to 1980. While I was looking for them I had a 1968 and 1971 dime for reference, but I didn't even need them after only seeing them a few times.


Compared to something like the two (or three) obverse types of the 1946 Rossie, the flame on RDV-001 and RDV-002 are like night and day.


Yeah, like I said in the journal there were two with decent strikes. But overall, I didn't find any that I'd bet my life were full torch. Some very close, but no crazy stand-outs.


It's okay though. I got both rolls for a pretty good price (compared to others that sold on eBay). I originally bought the coins to do a bit of research on the mintmark. I found a few 1970-D Roosevelts with very thin mintmarks and wanted to see what that was all about. So I got to research that, the transitional reverse, and found a DDR -- pretty good if you ask me.


...Forgot to add this link to the journal: http://www.varietyvista.com/Roosevelt%20Dime%20RDV%20Changes.htm

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Hi Luke,


What (if any) premium factor does the RDV-002 command ? I am guessing 1.05X - 1.1X max in Unc. based on above comments but not sure.....



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Hey Tom,


Thanks. You said, "In circulated condition, the prices don't seem to be too high, a couple dollars a piece." I didn't even know that they sold for that much. I've actually never looked for what they sell for, since my main focus are the 1946 to 1964 dates.


I just mentioned these in a reply to Rick, but some of the obverse types on the 1946 Roosevelt are also reported as "scarce", but I don't think they are.


I believe Walter Breen was the first to publish the obverse types of the '46 dime in his Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins (see Breen 3699). I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that he says in it that Type I on the 1946-D and 1946-S is "presently scarce". However, I've found that they're actually pretty common.


But the obverse types of the 1946 Roosevelts is a confusing mess. They're aren't really studied too well and there's differences of opinions among the few who have looked at them. Breen describes two obverse types (not verbatim):


* Type I (markered by extra distance between the Y of LIBERTY and a weak JS)

* Type II (markered by less distance between the Y of LIBERTY and a strong JS)


Others say there are three obverse types. RichardsRooseveltReview.com (a great resource for info on silver Roosevelt dimes BTW) lists a third type that belongs in the middle which they call the "Transitional Type". They list (copy and pasted from their website):


* Type I: The "Y" of LIBERTY is far from the forelock. The JS (designer's initials) is small, weak, and often indistinct.

* Transitional Type: The "Y" of LIBERTY is far from the forelock. The JS is larger, stronger, and quite distinct.

* Type II: The "Y" of LIBERTY is close to the forelock. The JS is large, bold, and distinct.


I know that the Roosevelt dime isn't the most collected coin. But it's not like it's some obscure world coin from some tiny island. You'd think that someone, somewhere along the line would have come up with a definitive answer by now.


Nevertheless, I do look for the obverse types when I get any 1946 Roosevelts and also make a big mention of them when I sell any. And I've found that I generally get a little more at auction when I do. So if you happen to end up selling any 1946-dated Roosevelt in the future at auction, try adding the obverse type. I usually put it right in the title.


More of the obverse types from RichardsRooseveltReview.com (first photos on the page): http://www.richardsrooseveltreview.net/1946-P.htm


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Hey Rich,


I'm not sure. I just mentioned to Mohawk that I've never actually looked at the prices for any. But I can't imagine it's too high at all, if any as you said. I'm gonna check it out today and will post any of my sales info on them here; though I want to keep them all around for a bit for a little more study.

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After a quick look at eBay, there isn't much to go on.


This auction ended 5/5/14 with no bids and starting price of $3.13 (w/shipping). This one wasn't sold on eBay, but ended early by the seller; buy-it-now price of $16.98 (w/shipping). And there is only one that I could find currently listed and identified with an buy-it-now asking price of $126.85 (w/shipping) here.


I'll list one at auction on eBay this week with a big 'to-do' about the reverse and post the results here.


I'm sure that if you looked around a bit you could find several for sale on eBay that aren't identified. I just looked for maybe 10 minutes, Here I think is a pretty clear one. But the seller is asking a premium for the alleged double die. Here's another that I think is pretty clear, but the seller is asking a premium for the error. There are probably many more. The photos aren't very clear but this one and this one appear to be RDV-002 but aren't identified.

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Hi Luke,

I'm glad that my post was helpful to you!! And it sounds like your hands are full with those 1946 varieties. As for myself with selling them, well, I do not seek out Roosevelt dimes aside from what I find in pocket change. I have my reasons for this, and I don't want to turn another topic on coins into some debate, so I'll leave it at that. As for myself, I'm in the process of teaching myself the many varieties found on the Indian rupees of Queen Victoria......and there are a TON!!! I wish you luck with your pursuits though Luke!!!



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By the way...


Does anyone know if NGC recognizes the variety? It looks like PCGS does. PCGS has a population report at least: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/511016


...Answered my own question. Just called both companies. NGC doesn't designate FS-901 but PCGS does.

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I listed one of the 1970-D RDV-002s the other in a 10-day auction with a starting bid of $0.01. I also listed another clad Roosevelt with pretty clear machine doubling starting at a penny for 10 days to get a little better idea of how marketable the transitional variety is...that is, to see which generates more interest. I don't want to put the listings here because I don't want to skew the outcome any, but so far both are only generating little to mild interest, both still well under $1.00. The machine doubled coin actually has one more bid and is a little higher. I'll post the final sales next week.

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Results of the auctions....


So like I mentioned I had two competing listings that began at the same exact time in a 10-day auction with a starting bid of $0.01. The first was the 1970-D Roosevelt with RDV-002 and a 1983-P with clear MDD. I didn't want to post the listings here last week because I didn't want to skew the results anymore than I already did with the original post. But here are the ended auction links:






1970-D 10C FS-901 (RDV-002), uncirculated, sold for $7.50 with 12 bids from 8 bidders.


1983-P 10C MDD, fair, sold for $1.25 with 5 bids from 4 bidders.


As I mentioned I tried to make a big to do about the variety with bold font, subcategory, and listed in two categories, all of which eBay charges extra for. The final listing cost was over $5 so I just barely came out in the black after I pay for shipping.


Of course, one auction is not enough to make any definitive call on how marketable the RDV-002 variety is. But I'd call it light to mild. There was definitely more interest than I thought. The listing had over 50 views. But this could certainly be due to the doubling category listings.

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Interesting results. There are some that don;t break even, so you're probably fortunate with these. Maybe over time there will be greater interest?

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What seems harder to find is a mint state 1970-D with RDV-002 and with a good strike.


Found this thread and the forum on a search.


It's, unsurprisingly, the RDV-001 '70-D in the mint set.


People just didn't save clad in those days and the few that were set aside tended to be poorly struck from worn dies (though the '70-D was a little better).


Mint set coins are specially struck from special dies so Gems are pretty common in mint sets. They most assuredly are unusual outside of the mint set.

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