Am I out of touch !!! Lot goes for double what I bid.

[BillJones]

My coin is an earlier die state and is a bit sharper than your coin, Jimbucks; but your coins has mint luster and better surfaces. You have a really nice piece. (thumbs u

[JIM F.]

My coin is an earlier die state and is a bit sharper than your coin, Jimbucks; but your coins has mint luster and better surfaces. You have a really nice piece. (thumbs u

 

They are both great examples.

 

 

[$ilverHawk]

Here is a bit of information about these coins.

 

• The Oak Tree and Pine Tree coins were struck on a device called a rocker press. Think of an old fashioned printer that rocked back and forth to impart the letters, numbers or whatever. That's how these coins were struck. The advantage was it took less pressure to transfer the design on the planchet because you were striking only a part of the coin in an instant as opposed to whole coin at once as with a screw or drop press. The downside is that the coins were struck bent , which caused them to wear unevenly. The obverse and reverse were also seldom properly aligned so that one side (usually the tree side) was almost always off-center.

 

• There is no fine detail on this coins, like the "LIBERTY" on a Indian cent to use for grading. Therefore everything is basically on one plane. Therefore, there is a lot of surface grading which is subject to interpretation. If the coin was struck fairly flat, a VF can look just about as good as an AU. Here are couple of grading examples.

 

PCGS graded this Pine Tree three pence AU-55 and CAC liked it. I don't think that the coin is that good. It appears to have been lightly cleaned and the color does not look natural. I bought it because the opportunity to get one of these pieces that has not been messed with too much does not come along often. I missed out on one graded VF that looked just about as good for couple thousand less.

 

 

PCGS graded this Pine Tree six pence as an AU-55. This coin is simply wonderful. It has a lot of original mint surface and is flawless for the grade. Like most examples of this variety, the obverse is off-center.

 

 

This is a Noe 1 Pine Tree shilling. This is the marquee variety for the Massachusetts Pine Tree coinage because the piece is usually well centered and the dies were well made. PCGS graded this coin EF-45. It is okay, but the color is not original. The thing of it is, if this coin were only a little better and a bit more original, the price would go up two or three times what I paid for it.

 

 

Finally here is a Small Planchet Pine Tree shilling. This piece was struck on a screw press which resulted in a nice flat coin. The Small Planchet pieces are the most common of all the Pine Tree shillings. The die variety is Noe 16, which is the most common die variety in the series. PCGS graded it VF-35. I was hoping that it would make EF-40. I bought this coin raw many years ago before there were grading services.

 

These coins were made at the end of the Massachusetts silver period, which extended from 1652 to 1682. At this time the Massachusetts General Court, which was the governing body for the Bay Colony was concerned that the king was going to put the hammer down and close their mint. Therefore they concentrated on making only shillings; none of the lower denominations were minted.

 

 

Overall the Massachusetts silver coins was the most successful series of coins produced in what would be The United States until the U.S. mint opened in 1793. This was in a way the first shot in the Revolutionary War because it was an act of defiance to the king to open a mint. The fact that the mint opened in 1652 was significant because there was no King of England at that time. Oliver Cromwell was the Lord Protector.

 

So there you have a little primer about Massachusetts silver.

 

Bill,

 

I enjoy your very informative posts and comments. I love the historical commentary on shillings and the political implications.

 

I will begin to explore these early American coins as collectibles for my collection.

 

Carl

[Walkerfan]

I am noticing some VERY strong prices, too. Have you guys checked the NGC price guide lately (at least for the Walkers)?? I just noticed last night that it is about Three-quarters GREEN, which means the price shown is an INCREASE from the previous one. I have NOT seen that type of market correction on a NGC price guide, in at least 5 years! They are also now showing the prices for PLUS graded coins----it shows up on the registry that way, at least.

 

One notable Walker record was broken, too (interesting to me, anyway)---since Heritage has been archiving their results (circa 1996) this has been the highest ever paid for a 1916-S MS 63 Walker. The previous record was in 2005, which was $2415-----I should know, as I was the under-bidder. Well....an OGH MS 63 just went for a little over $3055!!! It seems that green beans and Kool-Aid is quite an expensive meal! This one didn't even have a bean!!! Amazing. Also a 1923-S that I didn't particularly like but was graded MS 66+ making it a pop coin 2 coin at PCGS with one finer went for 47000!! Yes, you read it correctly----no extra zero there. It is definitely a SELLERS' market for many items.

 

Here's an image of the 1916-S

 

 

 

and here's the 23-S. Looks badly dipped, has some chatter and marks and the strike is...

 

 

[jom]

Chatter schmatter...I don't know about the grade on that 23-S but I love the coin!

 

jom

[JIM F.]

Maybe it's a bad photo or but that 23-S doesn't look any better than coins in BU rolls (common dates) of Walkers I have and paid just over silver spot for them -- but that was about 15 years ago.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Maybe it's a bad photo or but that 23-S doesn't look any better than coins in BU rolls (common dates) of Walkers I have and paid just over silver spot for them -- but that was about 15 years ago.

 

 

I don't know what the assigned grade is, but based on the image, it looks MS64 to me. Either way, you must have been buying uncommonly nice BU rolls or they weren't as nice as you thought. One other possibility is that this coin is better than you think.

[mikew148]

Maybe it's a bad photo or but that 23-S doesn't look any better than coins in BU rolls (common dates) of Walkers I have and paid just over silver spot for them -- but that was about 15 years ago.

 

 

I don't know what the assigned grade is, but based on the image, it looks MS64 to me. Either way, you must have been buying uncommonly nice BU rolls or they weren't as nice as you thought. One other possibility is that this coin is better than you think.

 

That's the grade I was thinking as well. OP said it graded 66+ and sold for BIG $$!

 

 

[Walkerfan]

Maybe it's a bad photo or but that 23-S doesn't look any better than coins in BU rolls (common dates) of Walkers I have and paid just over silver spot for them -- but that was about 15 years ago.

 

 

I don't know what the assigned grade is, but based on the image, it looks MS64 to me. Either way, you must have been buying uncommonly nice BU rolls or they weren't as nice as you thought. One other possibility is that this coin is better than you think.

 

It's graded a 66+ with a PCGS pop of 2 and 1 better! I agree with you Mark, as it looks no better than 64 to me.

[BillJones]

If you guys are talking about that 1923-S half dollar in the PCGS green label holder, that piece looks like a dynamite coin to me that could upgrade to MS-64. Having handled a few of the of the early Walkers, I'd say they don't get a lot better than that one.

[Walkerfan]

If you guys are talking about that 1923-S half dollar in the PCGS green label holder, that piece looks like a dynamite coin to me that could upgrade to MS-64. Having handled a few of the of the early Walkers, I'd say they don't get a lot better than that one.

 

Not sure which one you mean, Bill. There was a OGH 65 that went unsold and TWO OGH 62s that were flat and abraded. That's all that I saw.

[MarkFeld]

If you guys are talking about that 1923-S half dollar in the PCGS green label holder, that piece looks like a dynamite coin to me that could upgrade to MS-64. Having handled a few of the of the early Walkers, I'd say they don't get a lot better than that one.

 

It's the 1916-S, not the 1923-S, that is in the green label MS63 holder.

[BillJones]

If you guys are talking about that 1923-S half dollar in the PCGS green label holder, that piece looks like a dynamite coin to me that could upgrade to MS-64. Having handled a few of the of the early Walkers, I'd say they don't get a lot better than that one.

 

Not sure which one you mean, Bill. There was a OGH 65 that went unsold and TWO OGH 62s that were flat and abraded. That's all that I saw.

 

I was looking real fast at the 1916-S and figuring that blow-up was of that piece.

 

 

[JIM F.]

Well, for the first time in many years I took a look at my BU Walkers. Here is a representative example. I know my pictures are lousy, but it's the best I can do at this time. They are good looking in hand, and obviously BU regardless of my pics.

 

Thanks for looking

 

 

[coinman1794]

I have a small collection of Massachusetts silver coins (mostly known as "Pine Tree Shillings"), and was looking to add another piece that would not break the bank. I spotted this Oak Tree six pence in the current Heritage auction and placed a reserve bid of $2,750. I figured that I should have been in the running because NGC gave it a details grade because it had been "repaired." To my surprise the piece brought a hammer price of $5,500, which was exactly double my bid. Here is the link.

 

Mass Oak Tree Six Pence.

 

It makes me wonder what some of my other coins, which have grades are worth. This seems kind of high to me for a problem piece.

 

The first impulse would be to think a problem coin would sell at a lower price. However, this is a very attractively patinated, well struck and centered, and minimally damaged (according to Heritage) example of this six pence. Many problem free pieces don't look this nice.

 

I did not view it as all that nice. It had been cleaned and the surfaces were porous. The centering on the obverse was not as good at that on the Bowers book plate coin. In short the piece had a lot of detail, which was its best feature, but it had more wrong with it than just the repair noted by NGC. For those reasons I thought that Fine money was a fair bid.

 

Detail and meatiness are everything on these coins. Most are wavy, bent, and lacking in detail such that you can barley tell they are coins. This piece has considerably more detail than many, if not most well-circulated examples. I don't see any cleaning damage in the photographs, and it is not mentioned by Heritage. I did not see this coin in person, so there is no way for me to tell about cleaning damage. I also don't see much out of ordinary on the surface texture for these crudely made, heavily circulated coins; though clearly, some smoothing was done to cover up something.

 

 

Take a close look at the surfaces, and you will see fine, grainy porosity. I noted it when I was looking for the repair. That bright silvery color is not original.

 

Here is an Oak Tree shilling that PCGS graded EF-45. Although this too is not exactly original, the surfaces are smooth. And yes, this is in my collection.

 

 

Unoriginal and cleaned are two very different things. It is clearly not original, but again, I do not see any cleaning damage in the pictures. To call a coin cleaned indicates it was damaged in the process.

 

Many of these coins have slight porosity, and this piece certainly does have some, and that is possibly what was being smoothed. I don't consider it a problem free coin, just one that was clearly worth more than Fine money.

[BillJones]

To follow up on the Oak Tree six pence, I talked to the buyer, who is a well known expert dealer. As it turns out the coin was made from an Oak Tree shilling that had been cut down and struck over with under type showing. As such the coin was not really a problem piece in the way NGC thought it was. That is why the bid was so high. This could only have been caught via a personal inspection of the piece.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Very interesting; I wonder if PCGS, ANACS and ICG would have also called it a problem coin? If it is true the coin was falsely called a problem it should be reported to the ANA to minimize this type of thing in the future.

[MarkFeld]

Very interesting; I wonder if PCGS, ANACS and ICG would have also called it a problem coin? If it is true the coin was falsely called a problem it should be reported to the ANA to minimize this type of thing in the future.

 

Really? If the coin was misattributed, how would reporting it to the ANA minimize similar errors in the future?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Then how would you get misattribution corrected? Clearly Heritage and other major auction companies have contacts from time to time with grading services on snafus like this one.

[BillJones]

Then how would you get misattribution corrected? Clearly Heritage and other major auction companies have contacts from time to time with grading services on snafus like this one.

 

The only way is to re-submit the item to the grading service and ask them to reconsider their ruling. Such submissions can result in varying degrees of success.