No TrueView of the 1922 HR Peace $?

[Coindude]

I started this thread ATS since it was in their brand of plastic but there is some interesting information being discussed. Maybe RWB can lend some knowledge.

 

The 64

 

The 67

[Coindude]

I'm guessing there were at least two reverse dies. I know not many survive but there were a lot struck.

 

Take a look at the Ray going through the "N" in "ONE" on the reverse.

 

[mrkbrown8709]

Are these legit 1922 High Relief dollar

[Coindude]

Yes they absolutely are. They will be auctioned by Goldberg at the Pre Long Beach auction.

 

[Coindude]

The reverse dies are obviously different. Look at the lower right of the "N" in "ONE." One is pointed and the other is flat-bottomed. And you know what they say about flat bottoms... they make the rockin world go round!

[mrkbrown8709]

Are they yours? If so congrats!!

[Coindude]

Heck no man, I wish.

[RWB]

The two coins are from different reverse dies: The PR64 coin uses the 1921 HR reverse, and the PR67 uses the HR 1922 reverse. The two are completely different. These are described in the Guide Book for Peace Dollars. The 1922 HR with 1921 reverse was identified by NGC's David Lange on a circulation strike 1922 HR piece.

 

It would have benefited Goldbergs and PCGS if they had read the book, or at least consulted someone who had researched the series.

 

[mumu]

I bet these get into the kind of hands where we never see them again

[RWB]

Let's hope the attribution mistakes are corrected before the catalog is published.

[Kurtdog]

I love that, "Hi Relief." Well hello yourself.

[L1ncolnF4n]

I just want to see them in-hand before they disappear forever.

[jpcienkus]

Thanks for sharing the tru-views. They look much better than the pics in the Goldberg e-mail. I actually prefer the PF64.

[19Lyds]

Let's hope the attribution mistakes are corrected before the catalog is published.

Care to expound upon your answer Roger?

[RWB]

Many collectors assume that catalog descriptions are accurate.....most are fine, but some are the product of hurried and hassled catalogers who copy from one another or from obsolete sources. Originality and sound information takes a distant second place to speed and "selling words."

 

I have read hundreds of articles and hobby books that borrow from auctions on the premise that lot descriptions are reliable. But many are not and that perpetuates historical falsity. I'm reminded of the thorough mess created by John Ford and others when they invented stories for fake Pioneer gold. They faked history --- “history” of the American West that never happened.

 

[JIM F.]

Help me understand why they say 5-8 were known before. Seems odd they do not state an exact number. Due to TPG possible re-submittals or

 

 

[leeg]

It would have benefited Goldbergs and PCGS if they had read the book, or at least consulted someone who had researched the series.

 

This.

 

 

(thumbs u

 

Very nice coins also!!!

[Coindude]

Going off some of the information from Ms Morisene ATS, here are some photos for the obverse to show the differences.

 

"IN GOD" The left leg of the "N" is pointed on the bottom right. There is some slight difference in the "G" in "GOD" but that could be be a better strike.

 

 

Point of the bust and the 9. Again, this could be solely from being a better strike but it certainly looks different.

 

 

"TRVST" too many differences here to list and definitely more well defined on the 64.

 

 

And lastly the face. The cheek and chin are obviously more full on the PR64, as well as the eye socket being more sunken. There also appears to be a die marker in the field parallel to the nose.

 

[Conder101]

Help me understand why they say 5-8 were known before. Seems odd they do not state an exact number. Due to TPG possible re-submittals or \?\?\?

Because no one person has seen all the specimens and been able to catalog the specific markers of each specimen. So counts of "known" specimens are compiled for reports of different people and attempting to trace specimens from reports of sales to one person to another. If a couple of sales aren't reported and one is the same coin may be counted more than once. When more than one coin passes through the same persons hands there can be confusion as to which was which or how many coins were actually involved. For example one of the 1913 V nickels is sometimes described as the Farouk coin. Farouk actually owned two of them. Something that also adds to the confusion is the recent habit of changing the "name" of an important coin when it comes up for sale. It used to be that an important coin was known by the name of the major collection it was in when it was first auctioned. In later sales it would still be known by that original name. Today every time is sells it gets the "name" of the current owner and one coin can be listed multiple times under differnt names.

 

And of course as you have mentioned in the Pop reports you have the problem of crack outs, resubmittals, and coins being sent back and forth from one TPG to another and the pops not getting corrected.

[RWB]

The quantity produced might not be known and so the estimate is based on pieces actually documented in auctions and private sales. Usually, the low number is based on specifically identified specimens that are known to be different coins. The high number includes possible, but not proven, duplicates or reported private sales. TPG numbers are often too distorted to be useful.

 

For the 1922 HR and MR coins, the numbers are further confused since prior to 2005 (when Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 was published) ALL 1922 high relief versions were lumped together. At present there are three different designs recognized instead of one “lump.”

 

 

[mumu]

I think that grimey black framing makes certain parts of the 64 look more full than it is. Some kind of cameo framing effect which you see in a lot of circulated coins with the same grime. If you look at certain details, the 67 looks fuller in some areas. The tip of the first strand of hair behind the eye is one example.

[coinman1794]

Going off some of the information from Ms Morisene ATS, here are some photos for the obverse to show the differences.

 

"IN GOD" The left leg of the "N" is pointed on the bottom right. There is some slight difference in the "G" in "GOD" but that could be be a better strike.

 

 

Point of the bust and the 9. Again, this could be solely from being a better strike but it certainly looks different.

 

 

"TRVST" too many differences here to list and definitely more well defined on the 64.

 

 

And lastly the face. The cheek and chin are obviously more full on the PR64, as well as the eye socket being more sunken. There also appears to be a die marker in the field parallel to the nose.

 

 

These coins have two different finishes, patinas, and planchet qualities, and it is not possible to prove a difference in relief based on shadowing in the images alone.

 

As a variety specialist, I immediately noticed that they clearly show two coins struck from dies that were produced from the same hub or master hub, as each is showing identical hub doubling on the corners of letters, and identical defects in the dots and defect lines around the rim, etc.

 

To someone more knowledgeable on the manufacturing process: is it possible to create a higher relief on one die by pressing the hub deeper into the die metal upon manufacture, or would the design have to be cut more deeply into the hub?

 

 

[TonerGuy]

"Discovered in a Bank Vault"

 

Anyone know the story behind that statement ?

 

Were they discovered in the SDB of a rich dead uncle or were they found in a old silver dollar mint bag or a long dead teller's change draw that was never counted one day 90 yrs ago ?

 

I dont understand...

[MarkFeld]

"Discovered in a Bank Vault"

 

Anyone know the story behind that statement ?

 

Were they discovered in the SDB of a rich dead uncle or were they found in a old silver dollar mint bag or a long dead teller's change draw that was never counted one day 90 yrs ago ?

 

I dont understand...

 

I think the odds ar quite strong that the coins were in a private safety deposit box, rather than in a bag or change drawer.

[RWB]

At the time they were saved by director Baker, they had only nominal value -- same for the DEs.

 

I don't understand why these Baker coins are being trickled out over a decade....they would be a much more impressive and valuable group if marketed together. I can imagine the super catalog that could have been prepared with all that we now know.

 

If I were Goldberg’s, I’d consider pulling these two Peace dollars, and going for something bigger and more comprehensive…..but, fortunately, I’m not in the coin business.

 

[oih82w8]

Whoa! Those are really nice...the prices for those are sure to bring some elevated prices! Way out of my league.

[RWB]

Sadly, the auction catalog has been published with the incorrect attribution. That is guaranteed to confuse bidders and distort the historical record. The 1922HR/rev 1921 coins were failed trial strikes made on a toggle press and are very rare - 3-4 known. Unless the published description and PCGS's attribution are corrected before the sale, the early Peace dollar situation will only be further confused.

 

(Disclaimer: I discovered documentation and other information that established the present knowledge about early Peace dollars and the experiments relating to them. Much of this was published in 2005 in "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921." David Lange first identified the 1922HR/rev 1921 trial strike coin based on my earlier description. R.W. Julian discovered the initial indications of trial production in the 1960s.)

 

[coinman1794]

These two coins were struck from dies made from the same hub. There are various matching defects visible on both coins. How did one become high relief and one not?

 

 

[RWB]

Comment:

I want to clearly state that the misattribution appears to be nothing but a mistake - one of those things people occasionally make in the course of the day.

 

 

Both are high relief. The obverses are from the same hubs.

One was struck on a medal press - as were all proof Peace dollars - and the other was struck on a normal production toggle press. Hence the differences in detail.

 

[Coindude]

Roger, thanks for that additional information. It seemed to me that there was a difference in the relief and that confirms what I felt. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.