ATS and the normal NGC bashing!!

[WingedLiberty1]

 

A couple of points in reply to your paragraphs 1 and 3 above:

 

1) And I have seen NGC details graded coins end up being graded as problem-free by PCGS. It goes both ways.

 

3) My impression is that PCGS is as likely as NGC is to bump a coin's grade due to especially attractive color.

 

I like your addendum #1. I bet you are right that it goes both ways. My experience is more with crossing NGC to PCGS ... but things going the other way makes sense. There is just little consistency. I think that grades should be thought of as a number and then an error spread (like a standard deviation). MS65 (+/- 1.5) So an MS65 coin could be graded anywhere from MS63+ to MS66+ depending on the experience and mood of a particular grading team. I think if I cracked the same coin out and submitted it to both services 100 times, I would see this kind of "scatter pattern" in the grades. (Really makes you think about not buying a grade rarity, doesnt it!!) I think this is what happened with that misgraded MS68 Morgan ... someone lucked into the very highest outlier grade and then decided to "cash in". Who doesnt think that if that coin was cracked out and sent in again it wouldn't come back as MS66 or thereabouts. Grading is a more of a range and not an absolute number (IMHO). If you can get a coin graded in the mid point of that range, then you have a fairly graded coin.

 

On your addendum #3. I have never had that experience myself, but both services are so inconsistent with grading that this sort of result would not surprise me.

 

In any case, on that color-bump issue, I always wondered why PCGS doesn't have any PCGS PR70 BN (or PR69 BN for that matter) Lincoln Cents graded? I actually own one of the two known PR68 BN Lincolns. It's like PCGS is thinking that if a copper coin turns color and goes BN, then it can't be a really high grade. Yet there are PR70DC Lincolns out the wazoo. My impression is PCGS always penalized BN (colorful) copper dropping it by a grade or two. But I could be wrong. That's just my experience of it.

 

Here is my rare PR68 BN Lincoln. This came out of a sealed OGP 1962 Proof Set that I bought for $25 on eBay.

 

 

This 2004-S Proof Lincoln graded PR69RB ... This was cracked out of a pristine OGP hard-plastic Proof Set. Honestly I would have called this BN since I don't see any of that mint fresh copper color. That being said, I bet if PCGS did call this a BN, they would have dropped the grade to PR68BN ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Walkerfan]

Your 62 Lincoln looks much more scarlet than brown. Maybe if it was truly brown and less 'colorful' it wouldn't have gotten the 68 grade?

[WingedLiberty1]

Your 62 Lincoln looks much more scarlet than brown. Maybe if it was truly brown and less 'colorful' it wouldn't have gotten the 68 grade?

 

It's more of a pink color in parts. PCGS assigns brown if it's less than 5% original mint fresh copper color. ...

 

 

This is what the Red's (RD) look like by comparison ...

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Copper coins especially relatively modern ones are a small niche. If a statistical analysis were to be accurate in the analysis of one grading service vs. another one it would have to be comprehensive across many denominations and all the metals coins are made out of. Maurice Rosen has had reports on this type of subject without coming to any definitive conclusions.

[TonerGuy]

My impression is that PCGS is MORE likely to bump a coin's grade due to especially attractive color.

 

Fixed...

 

However that being said I think that PCGS is VERY VERY VERY INCONSISTENT in what they will accept as natural or market acceptable. Changing what they will grade (colorwise) on an almost weekly basis. I am sure if I cracked out some colorful PCGS graded coins and sent them in today, over half would come back QC. And if I cracked out some PCGS QC coins and sent them in next week, over half would come back graded. I think this inconsistency is a real problem and makes me lose confidence in their opinion on color.

 

I sent 12 modern (1965-1980) toners to NGC - none had outrageous color. Mostly what I and others refer to as Dansco toning. All were bodybagged by NGC.

 

The same coins where sent to PCGS - all graded.

 

Look at what PCGS is willing to grade in regards to toned ASEs...

 

I agree with you that PCGS is by far more relaxed as to what is MA when it comes to toned coins, especially modern toners.

[copper toning]

Got it. Stacks takes the position that although they know a coin they are auctioning is not properly graded, they will not take a numismatic, professional stance and withdraw the coin from auction.

 

I say this because anyone that is on the staff of Stacks, upon viewing this coin, would know that the grade assigned is in error.

 

Yes, I'm sure that many auction venues have hundreds of coins that are listed, and it is quite an issue to insure that the coins as listed are truly the grade as assigned by the TPG.

 

In this particular instance, Stacks has failed the collecting community.

 

Carl

 

Do you think a seller or auction house should decline to offer a certified coin for sale each and every time they believe the grade is inaccurate? If so, what makes their opinion better then that of the grading company? If not, upon what basis should they decide whether to refuse to offer a given coin for sale?

 

I have seen many examples where one or more persons opined that a coin was obviously mis-graded, while others (who happened to be experts) strongly disagreed.

 

At the very least, you are being unrealistic in expecting anyone to "insure that the coins as listed are truly the grade as assigned by the TPG". In part, because there is no way to determine that.

 

I agree with mark here. There is no way the auction houses can make their own grade on coins. It may suck this is a high dollar coin being discussed, but the principle would be the same on a coin which is $100 in 67 and $125 in 68

[copper toning]

Wingedliberty I dont want to quote again, but I will say that I to collect copper and a lot of toned copper at that.

 

Your experiences have to do with the fact pcgs is not sure what to do with toned copper.

 

Also in the pcgs's 64BN's are loaded with coins any where form lowend 63's to mid range 65's

 

there 65's are high end 64's to 66's

 

ngc has a much better consistency on copper

[WingedLiberty1]

So maybe a better standard deviation for TPG grades would +/- 0.7 to +/- 1.0

 

That sounds plausible.

 

Did you ever read PCGS grade descriptions ? First time I read that I laughed out loud. With descriptive words like "few", "very few", "moderate", "average", "slightly", "mostly", "some" ... it's no wonder that graders can't hone in on a consistent grade. Most of those words are subject to interpretation. Is "few" interpreted as 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? Beats me.

 

 

[leeg]

Some very nice coins shown here.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

Some things very seldom change:

 

Bought these three Lincoln's raw from a well respected forum member in mid 2006:

 

 

 

 

Sent to PCGS for grading and got the results in December 2006. All three were bagged for questionable toning.

 

 

I believed the coins original so sent them back in March of 2007 with these results:

 

65RB

 

66RD

 

65RB

 

[WingedLiberty1]

I've had similar experiences. I sometimes wonder if it's not a ploy by the TPG's to squeeze more $$ out of the collecting community via resubmissions (even though I think the odds of that happening are somewhat small). That being said, if you have to submit a coin 3 times to get it to grade properly, they make 3x the money. Of course eventually it causes people to just stop submitting as slowly their confidence is eroded -- and they begin to question why they are spending so much to get an opinion that is so changeable. I think a more likely scenario is that grading standards are not well defined and subject to interpretation. Even the notation "questionable color" is ill defined -- they are not actually saying AT, what they are really saying is they have questions about the color and how it developed (i.e they don't know and have no idea -- it might be NT, it might be MA, or it might be AT, they don't know.). I guess in that light, I wonder if some day we might start seeing grades like "Questionable MS65" ... that is, they think it's an MS65, but it might be a 64 or a 66, they don't really know. Everything is questionable when you get right down to it. That's why if you submitted the same coin 100 times, you would get TPG grading results all over the map. Sometimes gradable, sometimes genuine. Sometimes natural or market acceptable color, sometimes questionable color. And grades that might be in the range of +/- 1.5 points.

[WingedLiberty1]

This was a Capped Bust Half that I bought a few years ago in an NGC AU53 slab.

 

First time I submitted it to PCGS, it came back "Genuine - Planchet Flaw"

 

Second time I submitted it to PCGS, it came back PCGS AU55 (a 2 point upgrade from the original NGC grade)

 

 

So I had to pay for grading twice with PCGS to get a grade.

 

I bet if I cracked it out and submitted it to PCGS again, it might come back a forth time as "Genuine - Questionable Color" as they might think the color is too good to be true.

 

So the "spread" of results for this coin is probably:

1. Genuine - Planchet Flaw

2. Genuine - Questionable Color

3. AU53

4. AU55

 

I also wouldn't be surprised to see a + or star grade (from NGC) at some point after multiple subs.

 

 

 

[brg5658]

For clarification, AU53 --> AU55 is a ONE level upgrade.

 

At least I haven't seen any AU54 coins for a long while.

[MarkFeld]

For clarification, AU53 --> AU55 is a "two point" upgrade, but just a "one grade" upgrade, since we do not currently make use of an AU54 grade.

[brg5658]

For clarification, AU53 --> AU55 is a "two point" upgrade, but just a "one grade" upgrade, since we do not currently make use of an AU54 grade.

 

If Mark would take me off of ignore, he'd know that I already said that.

 

One petty thread about CAC, and Mark puts me on ignore. Whatever.

[TonerGuy]

Some very nice coins shown here.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

Some things very seldom change:

 

Bought these three Lincoln's raw from a well respected forum member in mid 2006:

 

 

 

 

Sent to PCGS for grading and got the results in December 2006. All three were bagged for questionable toning.

 

 

I believed the coins original so sent them back in March of 2007 with these results:

 

65RB

 

66RD

 

65RB

 

There's nothing that I can see that would call into question the toning of any of these coins. Not only do they appear to me MA they appear to be NT ... but again that opinion is based on images.

[Coindude]

For clarification, AU53 --> AU55 is a "two point" upgrade, but just a "one grade" upgrade, since we do not currently make use of an AU54 grade.

If Mark would take me off of ignore, he'd know that I already said that.

One petty thread about CAC, and Mark puts me on ignore. Whatever.

His post is so similar to yours that it makes me think he doesn't have you on ignore and that it's quite possible that he was poking fun at you if you made a typo and before you edited it. I'm not saying that you made a typo or that you changed it, but it seems way to coincidental that you and he would both talk about the exact same thing and both using the "AU53 --> AU55". I could be wrong but that seems too similar.

[okbustchaser]

Got it. Stacks takes the position that although they know a coin they are auctioning is not properly graded, they will not take a numismatic, professional stance and withdraw the coin from auction.

 

I say this because anyone that is on the staff of Stacks, upon viewing this coin, would know that the grade assigned is in error.

 

Yes, I'm sure that many auction venues have hundreds of coins that are listed, and it is quite an issue to insure that the coins as listed are truly the grade as assigned by the TPG.

 

In this particular instance, Stacks has failed the collecting community.

 

Carl

 

 

And you think these terms are unique to Stack's?

 

From Scotsman's...

 

No lot can be returned because of a variance in judgement with regards to grade. Scotsman Auction Co., of course, cannot guarantee that our opinion will match that of any of the many third-party grading services since they often differ in opinion among themselves. In addition, Scotsman Auction Co. cannot guarantee that a coin certified by any third-party grading service will be given the same grade and/or designations from another certification company. Therefore, any attempt by a bidder to get any item purchased in this sale graded, regraded, or upgraded by a third-party grading service is done solely at the risk of the purchaser. Scotsman Auction Co. strongly advises that you purchase coins already certified by your preferred grading service.

 

Eg. A person wins a certified coin in this auction graded MS-65 Full Head by grading service "A." That person then submits that same coin to grading service "B." Grading Service "B" grades the coin MS-64. This coin CANNOT be returned. THIS AUCTION IS NOT AN APPROVAL SALE AND ALL SALES ARE FINAL

 

From David Lawrence Rare Coins...

 

Disclaimer of Representations or Warranties from DLRC. The items described in this auction as to grade, mintmark, quality, designation, variety, rarity, provenance, and historic relevance are qualified statements of good faith opinion and not warranties. DLRC relies on the opinions of leading numismatic certification services such as PCGS, NGC, CAC and other third party grading services, and supplies information relating to certified coins only for the convenience of the Internet or phone bidders. The attributes of particular coins and other items may have a material impact on their value, and bidders assume all risk of differing opinions thereof. No employee or agent of DLRCA is authorized to make any representations or warranties regarding the characteristics of items sold by DLRC or the correctness of descriptions, and DLRC DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AS TO THE MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS OR CONDITION OF ITEMS BEING SOLD.

 

From Legend Morphy Auctions...

 

All lots are sold “as is.” Lots graded by PCGS, NGC or other third-party grading services, or any lot viewed by the buyer or anyone on buyer’s behalf prior to the auction, may not be returned. This is not an approval sale. All sales of lots to the highest bidder are final. Bidders are strongly advised and encouraged to research any lots upon which they plan to bid, and to determine bids, based upon their own evaluation. Bidders assume all risks concerning and related to the grade, quality, appearance, condition, history and origin of any lot. Bidders acknowledge that coin grading is not an exact science, that it can be subjective and inconsistent and that it is possible that two parties might assess or grade the same coin differently. LM makes every effort to describe all items offered in its sales, accurately. All items will be available for preview prior to the auction.

 

And finally, since you mentioned Heritage above...

 

From Heritage...

 

Auctions are not on approval. No certified material may be returned because of possible differences of opinion with respect to the grade offered by any third-party organization, dealer, or service. No guarantee of grade is offered for uncertified property sold and subsequently submitted to a third-party grading service. There are absolutely no exceptions to this policy.

 

But, of course, we don't bash anybody over here.