NGC or PCGS

[GoldFinger1969]

I have seen many examples in which the identical coin brought considerably more money in a PCGS holder than it did in an NGC holder. And not the other way around.That is a large part of the reason so many coins are attempted for crossover into PCGS holders.If a relatively small percentage of buyers buy the coin, not the holder, but many others buy the holder, not the coin, that will have a dramatic impact on price. And I believe that is the numismatic world in which we live. We don't have to like it or think it makes sense, but that doesn't stop it.

 

Mark, I agree...but let me ask you...as a former NGC Grader, doesn't that mindset kind of annoy you a bit ?

 

I see for the most part that PCGS and NGC are always lumped together as the Gold Standard when I read introductory articles (even advanced ones)....on sophisticated message boards (like ours (thumbs u ) we may talk a bit more about how PCGS is more like 1-A compared to 1-B for NGC. OK...I get that....but it's not like NGC is one of those "grade mills" that is giving out grades 3-5 numbers too high across the board.

 

Hey, I have no ax to grind here, I'm just playing Devil's advocate. My gold coins are PCGS and my recent silver coins are NGC (MS-69's and MS-70's).

 

Believe me, I understand even if there is no underlying rationale for a PCGS premium, it can still persist if people WANT it to. Same thing in financial markets, where technical analysis can take over the market -- if only because enough people are looking at the same thing.

[TonerGuy]

 

I think this also has to prefaced on whether you plan to buy and hold or buy and flip. If you are buying and flipping then PCGS+CAC is probably the answer in the market right now.

 

However, who knows how the market will perceive the NGC vs. PCGS debate in 10 yrs, 20 yrs or 30yrs. Im sure when NGC was using black inserts for their holders no one perceived the value they would hold today. If they did they probably would have been saved at a higher rate. No one here has a Magic 8-Ball that can tell you in 15 yrs PCGS will still command a premium or what that premium will be.

 

But as others have pointed out I also think the "PCGS premium" also depends on the series and the grade range.

 

I like toned Peace $ and I havent noticed any "PCGS premium" over NGC coins in regards to this series. If anything NGC toned Peace $ with a * bring a higher price than toned PCGS Peace $ at the same numerical grade.

[Matt_dac]

As a novice collector I can easily go to Ebay, search for a particular coin, and see the exact same coin slabbed by PCGS is more expensive than NGC. The sold prices bear that out as well.

 

As a collector I do not prioritize the PCGS premium (or CAC) and I specifically search for NGC graded coins. I've done some business with NGC, spoken to people on the phone, and I prefer the look/feel of the holder compared to PCGS. I have not had the opportunity/reason to work directly with PCGS. I may miss a great deal from a PCGS slabbed coin in narrowing my search to NGC coins, but we all have finite time.

 

I collect gold coins and I never buy them raw. The graders at NGC have more experience than I do and since most of what I buy is online it is an added level of security. I still buy the coin I like but I'll buy the coin I like from among the NGC slabs. I'm 4 coins away from completing the $2.50 gold quarter eagle set (Indian) and my preference was to have all of them graded from the same company.

[Tradedollarnut]

Wow. I see a LOT of advice here that will financially destroy a new collector

 

First off - how in the world does a new collector have the tools to "buy the coin, not the holder"? He doesn't. Advising him to ignore the holder is financial suicide. Advising him that a $20 second opinion from a world class grader is a marketing ploy only is just idiocy.

 

Second off, one must understand the dynamics of the marketplace. Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it. Unless you know the source and the history, you have to presume such. And unless you have the experience to separate the wheat from the chaffe, you had better be buying from a great dealer who can and has your interest at heart or using CAC as a crutch to do it for you.

 

Please, please, please! Do not listen to those preaching such things if you are a new collector!

[brg5658]

Wow. I see a LOT of advice here that will financially destroy a new collector

 

First off - how in the world does a new collector have the tools to "buy the coin, not the holder"? He doesn't. Advising him to ignore the holder is financial suicide. Advising him that a $20 second opinion from a world class grader is a marketing ploy only is just idiocy.

 

Second off, one must understand the dynamics of the marketplace. Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it. Unless you know the source and the history, you have to presume such. And unless you have the experience to separate the wheat from the chaffe, you had better be buying from a great dealer who can and has your interest at heart or using CAC as a crutch to do it for you.

 

Please, please, please! Do not listen to those preaching such things if you are a new collector!

 

Maybe if you define "significant" to mean 6 figures your comment might approach reality. Bruce, you must realize though that your definition of "significant" likely differs from 99.999999999% of collectors.

 

To presume that any even remote majority of coins in the < $2K range graded by NGC have been attempted at PCGS is farcical at best. And, those <$2K coins are what make up the overwhelming majority of most collectors holdings. You 1%-ers enjoy preaching sermons with zero relevance to us 99%-ers.

[jpcienkus]

Does that mean all the Eric P. Newman coins are insignificant?

[Tradedollarnut]

Think what you want. I know how the industry works and have seen enough dealers handling coins fresh back from NGC. Off to PCGS they go for crossover to get the extra 10-20% out of them. Two or three times if they believe in the coin - before you or anyone ever gets a chance to buy them.

 

Exactly what experience do you have with seeing coins in boxes fresh back from NGC at a dealer's table? Give us some feel for your qualifications to make such statements.

[O mint bug]

 

Mark

 

I like the part of your reply on technical analysis. I change the channel when this starts. I have been in the financial services industry for over 30 years and if anyone thinks a chart will be a great tool in forecasting stock and bond prices is overlooking the fact that there are so many variables a model cannot anticipate It kills the capacity to forecast. I always tell them a broken clock is right twice a day, which is more than the technicians. This is one of the reasons I selected O Dbl Eagles as their price start looks more like a railroad bridge with a steep positive grade than a heart attach victims heart monitor (the technical chart}.

 

I am on NGCs side when it comes to grading coins. PCGS coins will certainly not be kicked out of a collection. NGC grades far too much expensive gold and silver, which tells me who the players are. Graders have a very tough job and it is all subjective. Please remember I am still learning as if anyone else is not. only difference is the slope of the curve.

 

Goldfinger I was very tired yesterday and if I remember correctly you suggested I am more on a bullion play, which o mints are about as far away as you can get from this. The 1933 D example puzzled me. I don't want to go to prison nor would I EVER have the fire power to buy one. It is just out of place in the post. I have all I can handle with the second tier of the set ie 55, 59 and to a lesser extent the 60 os. Don't know enough about S mints other than these are coins that have come out of ship wrecks and tin cans more than once as they travelled over water to their final destination. The cans were a 19th safe deposit box.I traded all mine in on O mints as part of the purchase price. Os went by rail and very few type one Os that are nice coins have come out of the European bank vaults and bump up POP reports. They and Phillys are also the bulk of the type one values and some of these are more of a bullion play but have a numismatic value attached to them .S mints come very infrequently in hoards have do this as the recent find in Ca. confirms this, The Central America did pre discovery $1857 O Au and UNC collectors no favors. 21 tons of recovered gold equated to 20% of the countries total gold reserves. The loss of the CE caused 5 of the 7 largest NY banks to fail as we were on the gold standard.I just wish a couple of hundred 54 and 56 Os would pop up but few type ones went to Europe relative to later dates. Should this happen I could procure all 12 Os 50-61. DW is bullish on S mints and I am sure he is for a very good reason. can't own them all.

 

In closing almost all of the posts were helpful as many collectors have something of value to offer even if you don't agree on everything. I have been told so many different opinions is gets mine boggling. If I learn one thing form a post it is reading time well spent as knowledge is very valuable in my endeavor and other than DWs book on NO book that is a close second. I am re reading it and he does mention a third edition may come out in app. 10-12 years form the second, new pop #s and values would help. Also PCGS and NGC have done more to clean up this hobby than anyone or anything else. I assembled a complete set of Buffalos 9even had a full horn 18/17 D and a AU 3 legged. Only void was a well struck 21S. Could have got one UNC for $50 in 1974 but they sure were weak. Did not have the PCGSs and NGCs of the world to cull out under grades on the sell and over grades on the buy. Just had to learn how to grade each category on your own.

 

O mint gold bug

[Catbert]

O mint -

 

Did you review Heritage archives to answer your question regarding your O mint gold in various holders, with and without CAC? I'm curious to learn what you found.

[brg5658]

Think what you want. I know how the industry works and have seen enough dealers handling coins fresh back from NGC. Off to PCGS they go for crossover to get the extra 10-20% out of them. Two or three times if they believe in the coin - before you or anyone ever gets a chance to buy them.

 

Exactly what experience do you have with seeing coins in boxes fresh back from NGC at a dealer's table? Give us some feel for your qualifications to make such statements.

 

"Boxes with coins" doesn't qualify what kind of coins they are. Have you even looked at coin in the < $2K range in the past decade? If one is buying coins in the <$2K range (arbitrary cut-off admittedly) , I have never seen anyone suggest that a coin that still resides in an NGC holder must have failed crossover at PCGS. That's simply a stupid comment. My argument was that your "advice" for a new collector is irrelevant -- as "new collectors" are rarely starting off in the hobby with coins in the price range where the PCGS-CAC nonsense makes one iota of a difference.

 

I guess we need you to define what a "significant" coin is Bruce. Lots of my 600+ coins are in NGC holders, and I'm quite sure most have never been to PCGS. But the coins I collect are trinkets in your world -- most likely valued less than what you spend on a "nice" dinner out. The onus of proof of silly comments resides with the person making the claim that something is happening. To clarify, that would be you. What evidence do you have that coins of value < $2K in NGC holders are going to PCGS en-masse by the majority of dealers (outside of your small circle of PCGS-only dealers)?

 

[O mint bug]

Lots Attend the area auctions and look at similar grades by both . Frankly not interested in self proclaimed experts. As I said earlier I have two and they see the coins first and I often get first shot. Frankly not interested in self posted qualifications as that is not the purpose of my posts.

[Tradedollarnut]

Good luck with your collection.

[brg5658]

Good luck with your collection.

 

And good luck with your investment in coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think this also has to prefaced on whether you plan to buy and hold or buy and flip. If you are buying and flipping then PCGS+CAC is probably the answer in the market right now.

 

Excellent point, TG.....liquidity is key if you are looking to buy-and-sell.

 

However, who knows how the market will perceive the NGC vs. PCGS debate in 10 yrs, 20 yrs or 30yrs. Im sure when NGC was using black inserts for their holders no one perceived the value they would hold today. If they did they probably would have been saved at a higher rate. No one here has a Magic 8-Ball that can tell you in 15 yrs PCGS will still command a premium or what that premium will be.

 

Anymore than what the numismatic premium will be for gold or other coins. All you can do is either (1) ignore the premium and buy what is cheap or (2) pay the premium at what you hope is a reasonable mark-up to underling NAV (net asset value).

 

What is interesting is that both PCGS and NGC are regularly referred to as The Gold Standard in grading; both have high-quality graders; both came out at about the same time. So on the surface, not much to differentiate them unlike some of the 2nd or 3rd Tier graders.

 

But as others have pointed out I also think the "PCGS premium" also depends on the series and the grade range.

 

Yup, Mark said it actually INCREASES as you get into the rarified air of low-population numbers and the like.

 

I like toned Peace $ and I havent noticed any "PCGS premium" over NGC coins in regards to this series. If anything NGC toned Peace $ with a * bring a higher price than toned PCGS Peace $ at the same numerical grade.

 

Could be too specific a niche....I HAVE seen a PCGS premium in Saint Gaudens coins, but it is random and fluctuates.

[Tradedollarnut]

Good luck with your collection.

 

And good luck with your investment in coins.

 

Ya know, it's ok to be an , I'm just not sure why one would want to be so open about it as you are

[jpcienkus]

Think what you want. I know how the industry works and have seen enough dealers handling coins fresh back from NGC. Off to PCGS they go for crossover to get the extra 10-20% out of them. Two or three times if they believe in the coin - before you or anyone ever gets a chance to buy them.

 

Exactly what experience do you have with seeing coins in boxes fresh back from NGC at a dealer's table? Give us some feel for your qualifications to make such statements.

 

"Boxes with coins" doesn't qualify what kind of coins they are. Have you even looked at coin in the < $2K range in the past decade? If one is buying coins in the <$2K range (arbitrary cut-off admittedly) , I have never seen anyone suggest that a coin that still resides in an NGC holder must have failed crossover at PCGS. That's simply a stupid comment. My argument was that your "advice" for a new collector is irrelevant -- as "new collectors" are rarely starting off in the hobby with coins in the price range where the PCGS-CAC nonsense makes one iota of a difference.

 

I guess we need you to define what a "significant" coin is Bruce. Lots of my 600+ coins are in NGC holders, and I'm quite sure most have never been to PCGS. But the coins I collect are trinkets in your world -- most likely valued less than what you spend on a "nice" dinner out. The onus of proof of silly comments resides with the person making the claim that something is happening. To clarify, that would be you. What evidence do you have that coins of value < $2K in NGC holders are going to PCGS en-masse by the majority of dealers (outside of your small circle of PCGS-only dealers)?

 

 

I think the 2nd portion of his response was directed at me. Asking me for my qualifications.

 

All I have to say is the world is littered with once great companies that became so arrogant, they fell hard without even knowing why it happened and how to prevent it.

 

Here's a short list: GM, Kodak, Sears, American Airlines, Borders, Marshall Fields, Amana.

 

So to think one can predict the future is just silly in my view. My point to TDN was that there are many significant coins in the Eric Newman collection. I'm always wary when people paint with a big brush.

 

 

[brg5658]

Good luck with your collection.

 

And good luck with your investment in coins.

 

Ya know, it's ok to be an , I'm just not sure why one would want to be so open about it as you are

 

Someone has to give you some competition.

[Tradedollarnut]

I think the 2nd portion of his response was directed at me. Asking me for my qualifications.

 

It wasn't.

[TonerGuy]

Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it.

 

Can you define significant ? Are you referring to price, pedigree, grade or something else ?

 

Thanks in advance....

[brg5658]

Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it.

 

Can you define significant ? Are you referring to price, pedigree, grade or something else ?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Good luck. I already asked that question and was summarily ignored/dismissed.

[$ilverHawk]

It sounds like you might be talking about generic gold. But either way, I am tailing about a much broader grouping of coin types and grades.

 

I get what you are saying, but with all the "buy the coin, not the slab" talk....wouldn't you think that someone buying a very limited population coin -- less than a few dozen or maybe single-digits availability -- is going to just want THE COIN such that only the grade (and even that will be scrutinized) is going to matter, not the coin holder ?

 

I mean....if those coins cost tens of thousands at the minimum, and probably hundreds of thousands, wouldn't you think such a buyer is an expert himself (herself) and/or is employing an expert who could give a rat's you-know-what about the grader/holder ?

 

At the extreme: if there were two...1933 Double Eagles...1 in a PCGS, 1 in an NGC.....and if they each had the same grade and looked for all intents and purposes 99.999% the same.....can you imagine someone paying MORE for the PCGS if they could buy either ?

 

Unless someone has a fetish for PCGS, I can't imagine why. Even if that person was told "PCGS has better re-sale."

 

I have seen many examples in which the identical coin brought considerably more money in a PCGS holder than it did in an NGC holder. And not the other way around.That is a large part of the reason so many coins are attempted for crossover into PCGS holders.

 

If a relatively small percentage of buyers buy the coin, not the holder, but many others buy the holder, not the coin, that will have a dramatic impact on price. And I believe that is the numismatic world in which we live. We don't have to like it or think it makes sense, but that doesn't stop it.

 

I believe that is the marketing world we live in not the numismatic world we live in. If it was the numismatic world we live in then identical coins would have equal value regardless of the slab.

 

Cash is king forget about the actual condition of the coin, price depends upon the plastic slab. That is a very sorry commentary on our vocation/hobby.

 

Carl

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it.

 

Can you define significant ? Are you referring to price, pedigree, grade or something else ?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Good luck. I already asked that question and was summarily ignored/dismissed.

 

And I asked for your qualifications to make all your pronouncements and also was ignored. So get used to it...

[Tradedollarnut]

Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it.

 

Can you define significant ? Are you referring to price, pedigree, grade or something else ?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Significant means any coin where a dealer can make multiples of the submission fee by crossing the coin ... so yes, price.

[O mint bug]

Perhaps on the lower priced coins might carry a larger PCGS premium, especially higher grade UNC material. NGC grades a large portion of the very expensive gold coins. Look at the best complete sets in set registries for Double Eagles. The best sets have both graders and I doubt the buyers had a hang up about either grader. NGC grades coins like 1913 v nickels and there are very knowledgeable people buying this type of coins. Most of the type one doubles in AU are five figure and when one comes along it goes NGC or PCGS. A wholesaler that sells PCGS and NGC mentioned to me that on older rare gold the premium might be there but it is very small maybe 2 to 3%.

 

If PCGS gets to tough their volume will fall off and that would not be good as they are not covering their dividend with operating cash flow. They are publicly traded on the NASDAQ and the dividend is safe for the next few years because of their cash position. A falloff in volume would not be good and being too tough is a good way to cause this. What I would like to know is on what basis is PCGS tougher ie bag marks incurred in the mint?

 

My primary source of coins makes a flat amount on a dbl eagles and it is nowhere near 10-15%. Its all about making a profit and turning the coin. More common Saints are going to have a higher markup as they do not move as fast, resulting in the dealer having his money tied up in these coins longer. This is how the working capital financing is paid for. Same goes for 60 D small date pennies. Not everybody will pony up a high five or six figure price for one coin and this is figured into the coins margin.

 

I saw a $20 1852 O Au 53 PCGS CAC coin go for $8,000 plus the buyers premium. An AU 55 non CAC 58 ONGC graded is more expensive buy a few thousand dollars and went much quicker and at a higher price in line with the PCGS priceguide. Both were nice coins for a type one double. Using the 15-20% premiums some people throw out just does not hold as I know no collector that would take the PCGS 53 CAC over a straight up AU 55 NGC graded coin. I was told never give away points as proven by price guides.

 

Every collector I know personally collects coins not holders. Do they look at the coin and eye appeal? Of course. NGC is too active in grading expensive coins to trade at a big discount based solely on the grader.

 

Grading is not an exact science as these guys have a very tough job and do not always agree on the final number. That is why a coin goes to a master grader to break a tie. Too may times I have heard collectors admit they have cracked a slam more than once before the coin came back a grade higher NGC, PCGS or CAC.

 

I am not knocking grading services in any way as they have cleaned this hobby up tremendously. The days of a dealer buying a coin they say is a VF and then selling it as an XF are all but gone if a collector only wants graded coins. Stamps are rapidly moving in this direction for the same reason.

 

 

[O mint bug]

Mark

 

When I get them out of storage one I just bought I will. What are your thoughts on the above comment by Mark S on CAC stickers and the comments on JA, a name note familiar to me?

 

Are the cowboys going to improve in 2014. The Texans will as there is nothing but upside with a team like this. They just have a color blind QB that cannot determine his team colors for the defenses he faces. This explains the perfect 0-14 finish. Frankly Texas football is in the dumps as the Horns FINALLY dumped Mack, the Ags lost their offense and have NO defense, the Cowboys getting roughed up and the Texas just suck. We supply so many colleges with Texas talent and don't retain any at least in the college level.

 

Go figure.

 

Frankly I loved to play sports but watching them keeps me awake about ten minutes. D Eagle books like DWs NO Gold are what I like to pass time with.

[GoldFinger1969]

Think what you want. I know how the industry works and have seen enough dealers handling coins fresh back from NGC. Off to PCGS they go for crossover to get the extra 10-20% out of them. Two or three times if they believe in the coin - before you or anyone ever gets a chance to buy them.

 

Is that REALLY worth it for most coins in the sub-$3,000 range (where most of the gold coins I see are priced) ? Is it worth it for the individual collector to worry about an extra $150-$250 ? Is it worth it for a dealer with maybe more inventory to worry about that same extra profit times 10....or 20....or even 30 ? Is it worth the effort...time...expense ?

 

If I had a few super-rare coins worth 6-figures and you told me buyers would pay that rich premium that Mark referenced, then maybe the effort vs. reward ratio is worth a multiple 5-figure payday.

 

But otherwise, I don't see it. But then again, I'm not a veteran coin collector and I'm not a dealer, so I'll let the veteran coin collectors and dealers tell me how they are playing it.

 

Guys ? Gals ?

[O mint bug]

No

If the difference were this great 15-20% on 3000 and less I would crack PCGS slabs and get the next higher grade from NGC and that won't happen very often. Would you rather have a Au 58 than a Au 55 from PCGS. Check the heritage auction results.

[TonerGuy]

Significant means any coin where a dealer can make multiples of the submission fee by crossing the coin ... so yes, price.

 

Is there a price level which you are referring to ? Would it not be more advantageous to the dealer to try an upgrade than a cross on lower priced coins ?

 

For example, why cross an NGC MS65 common date Peace $ or Morgan $ whereas the dealer might have a better chance of getting NGC to regrade it as a MS66 which would/could then bring substantially more money.

 

Perhaps I erroneously assumed that most of the coins at the break, whether PCGS or NGC had been tried at least once for an upgrade, if they were exceptional for the grade. I never thought that dealers would waste their time with a cross on those types of NGC coins given the likelihood of success.

 

You've given me something to consider.

 

 

[mkman123]

I think all of this takes away the fun of collecting......I just buy the coin that looks nice and don't worry about profit and try and enjoy.

[brg5658]

Because PCGS coins sell for more, it is practically certain that any significant NGC coin has been tried for crossover multiple times before you ever have the chance to buy it.

 

Can you define significant ? Are you referring to price, pedigree, grade or something else ?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Good luck. I already asked that question and was summarily ignored/dismissed.

 

And I asked for your qualifications to make all your pronouncements and also was ignored. So get used to it...

 

My qualification is objectivity:

 

I am not a primary business partner with a coin dealer/firm that deals almost exclusively in PCGS/CAC coins (as you are).

 

I have no financial vested interest in proselytizing about the supposed benefits of PCGS graded coins (as you do).

 

I collect coins likely more similar to those of a "beginner", which was the point of the advice in this thread (not the 6-figure+ coins you collect).

 

I own hundreds of NGC graded coins, the vast majority of which I am 100% certain have never been submitted to PCGS for cross-over consideration (which according to you means that I own no "significant" coins).

 

For the record, I never asked for your cherry-picked qualifications about rubbing elbows with dealers who insist on PCGS graded coins in their cases. I asked you a simple question -- define significant. And, as I suspected, your definition of significance was one based solely on the potential profit a dealer has to make on a high value coin. Which, again, is irrelevant to a collector's goal of attaining the best quality coins.