HankHillPropane asks: If fresh dies make DMPL Morgan Dollars...

[RWB]

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=913497

 

Why aren't there other series that have a "proof like" look to them? Never heard of a "proof like" mercury dime or barber quarter for example. I know they minted actual proofs for almost every series so shouldn't some of the business strikes be proof like from being struck from fresh dies? Or maybe they're so rare I haven't seen any.

 

Answer: Because fresh dies do not normally produce DMPL or PL Morgan dollars or any other coin. See From Mine to Mint for information on die production, repair and polishing.

[physics-fan3.14]

Someone should direct him to my Registry set, linked in my signature below. It would blow his mind.

[wdrob]

 

Someone should direct him to my Registry set, linked in my signature below. It would blow his mind.

 

I have read your intro and looked at your PL set before and it is indeed very impressive, however you and Roger must be in disagreement about what makes causes a coin to become DPL or PL.

 

Roger:

Because fresh dies do not normally produce DMPL or PL Morgan dollars or any other coin.

 

You:

While there is much hype about “first strikes” on many modern mint products, prooflike coins truly are the first strikes. These mirrored coins represent the first couple of strikes of bright, fresh dies (which are often highly polished when new). Thus, prooflikes often are incredibly detailed, with sharp, crisp features.

 

 

Just an observation ...

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Roger knows a lot more about things than I do - and I have learned quite a bit since I wrote a lot of the stuff in my set. I just haven't had the time to update it yet.

 

However, the blanket statements that "PL's come from fresh dies" or "PL's come from refinished dies" are both inaccurate - prooflikes come from properly polished dies. I have plenty of very early die state PL's, and I have plenty of very late die state PL's.

[Raisethis2]

 

That's always been my understanding also. Proof like (or even cameo type) appearance is a result of dies properly prepared and just placed into service. On actual cameo proof coins (of the 1950's say) the first coins struck are deep cameo and the cameo is reduced with each subsequent coin. After about 40 coins the cameo has been eliminated and the coins which followcoins are simply bright.

 

There are PL coins of every series. They are just very rare on business strikes because those dies were used for many thousands of coins before being switched out.

 

Is this accurate?

 

 

 

[wdrob]

 

Absolutely Jason. I wasn't intending on destructively criticizing as I found your information and set, as I said previously, very impressive.

 

I just thought you might have wanted to re word that area possibly before sending him over there.

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger knows a lot more about things than I do - and I have learned quite a bit since I wrote a lot of the stuff in my set. I just haven't had the time to update it yet. However, the blanket statements that "PL's come from fresh dies" or "PL's come from refinished dies" are both inaccurate - prooflikes come from properly polished dies. I have plenty of very early die state PL's, and I have plenty of very late die state PL's.

 

I kinda agree.....my reading on the PL 2009 UHR's seemed to indicate that the PL coins did NOT simply come from new dies, but throughout the striking process. Even the Mint officials could not give a definitive answer (which is kind of confusing, when you think about it).

 

I mean...they make proof coins, right ? So if something is coming up PL, then what is it that is making it different from a regular strike ?

 

Early die strikes ?

 

Gold quality or materials ?

 

Minute discrepancy in press striking force ?

 

Other miniscule variables that I don't know about ?

[RWB]

Dies were polished to smooth the surface after a repair - to remove clash marks, minor cracks, etc. Most of this occurred after a die had been in production a while. But, sometimes new dies were not perfect or required rebasining and that could produce polished surfaces on an unused die.

 

In all instances, the polishing was a post-repair operation.

 

(New dies were polished smooth (not reflective) and often given a quick acid dip to remove micro burs and copper oxide left by annealing.)

 

It’s in the book….

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Well, you learn something new every day (hopefully).

 

Also there are a few gold coins like $20s that PL, not many. But PCGS will not designate them, only NGC.

[GoldFinger1969]

It’s in the book….

 

I'm waiting for the movie version ...... Just kidding, I will get to it....promise.

 

Roger, I think the question here is: how are PROOF coins made....and what is happening with the regular dies that is causing the PL status ?

 

You'd think someone at the Mint could tell us...it's not exactly a state-secret that needs to be under guard at West Point.

[GoldFinger1969]

Also there are a few gold coins like $20s that PL, not many. But PCGS will not designate them, only NGC.

 

PCGS will PL the 2009 UHR Saint Gaudens.

[wdrob]

what is happening with the regular dies that is causing the PL status ?

 

Two words: 'flour emery'

 

It's in the book!

 

 

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

Roger just explained how proof-like coins came to be made.

 

As for proof coin dies - it depends on what time period you're talking about, but Roger has covered that in his various books, too.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969, Roger just explained how proof-like coins came to be made.As for proof coin dies - it depends on what time period you're talking about, but Roger has covered that in his various books, too.

 

OK, you guys made your point.... I'll order the book and get it in the next few days.

[RWB]

Yep --- "flour emery." Not a term familiar to coin collectors, but one that I hope will gradually become understood in the 19th century minting process.

 

[PS: We are still auditioning lead actors for the movie. I had suggested the Victoria's Secret models for the adjusting room scenes, but the producer said no....now hoping for the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders....]

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

You don't (necessarily) need to order Roger's books, I just meant that you should read his earlier reply to your more recent post to this thread.

 

 

Roger,

 

If you really want to bring sex into your movie, you know you should move the setting to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing from the Mint!

 

 

(for those who don't know the story, one of the first supervisors to hire women at the BEP subsequently got into trouble for forcing the women to have affairs with him.)

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969, You don't (necessarily) need to order Roger's books, I just meant that you should read his earlier reply to your more recent post to this thread.

 

I did, Dave, I just don't know that anybody has answered this correctly. Or given an answer that answers it definitively. Or maybe I'm just confused by what I have read here and elsewhere.

 

PL coins early in a new dies life makes sense. But others are saying they know for sure that PL coins came from well-worn dies. And the Mint isn't talking.

 

So I don't know what to think, honestly.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

This is what Roger wrote:

 

Dies were polished to smooth the surface after a repair - to remove clash marks, minor cracks, etc. Most of this occurred after a die had been in production a while. But, sometimes new dies were not perfect or required rebasining and that could produce polished surfaces on an unused die.

 

In all instances, the polishing was a post-repair operation.

 

(New dies were polished smooth (not reflective) and often given a quick acid dip to remove micro burs and copper oxide left by annealing.)

 

It’s in the book….

 

 

What he means is: Proof-Like coins came from polished dies - either new ones polished before use or used dies polished after a repair.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969,This is what Roger wrote:Dies were polished to smooth the surface after a repair - to remove clash marks, minor cracks, etc. Most of this occurred after a die had been in production a while. But, sometimes new dies were not perfect or required rebasining and that could produce polished surfaces on an unused die.In all instances, the polishing was a post-repair operation.

(New dies were polished smooth (not reflective) and often given a quick acid dip to remove micro burs and copper oxide left by annealing.)It’s in the book….What he means is: Proof-Like coins came from polished dies - either new ones polished before use or used dies polished after a repair.

 

OK, thanks Dave...this makes sense. But again....been reading posts where folks say there's no 100% confirmation of polishing older dies. Doesn't mean they WEREN'T.....again....Mint isn't confirming or denying (why not !!!??).

 

And what does today's digital and ultra-advanced technology mean for Proofs and PL coins versus 50-100 years ago ? I know that the 2009 UHR Saint was produced by 1 strike of a 55 ton press, whereas the 1907 EHR needed up to 9 strikes of a 170-ton press (I know the gold composition was different, but still shows some advancement, no?).

[GoldFinger1969]

Hey Roger.....if I buy your book through Wizard, should I get it autographed via them or get the book myself and send it to you ? What's easier ?

 

[RWB]

Either way works. I just autographed another couple of cases last week, so it would be quicker for you to order from Wizard. Just ask for an autographed copy.

 

Re: PL dies - 19th century (This does not apply to modern dies - very different now.)

 

1. All dies begin the same way. Smooth satin-like surface from final polishing and acid dip.

2. After final inspection most dies went to the press room for use.

2a. New dies with any sort of detected damage were repaired then polished. Sometimes the polishing was done with fine emery (flour emery) and resulted in a semi-mirror surface.

3. During use dies could become damaged through clashing, cracking, sinking etc. If the damage was not too great, the die could be repaired and the surface polished (as in 2a). This might also result in a semi-mirror surface.

4. Sometimes the curvature of the die face (the 'basin') was not a good match for the planchets at one mint or another. (SF and Carson especially.) In these instances a new die was pressed against a zinc lap disk charged with abrasive and the curvature adjusted to better match the planchets. The results were better looking coins and longer die life.

 

All of the above are easily seen in Morgan dollars and a tour of the VAMWorld site will present examples of excessive polishing, spot polishing, abrasive contamination and other repair-related problems.

 

PS: A PL surface gradually returns to a normal one as the semi-mirror is abraded by the planchets. The coin’s surface is a composite between the die and the set of planchets. Also, this is why there are “PL” 2009 SG imitations – the planchets were polished and this polish was gradually transferred to the working dies.

 

(I hope the OP on PCGS gets to read this thread - it was started in hopes of being helpful.)

[GoldFinger1969]

Either way works. I just autographed another couple of cases last week, so it would be quicker for you to order from Wizard. Just ask for an autographed copy. Re: PL dies - 19th century (This does not apply to modern dies - very different now.) 1. All dies begin the same way. Smooth satin-life surface from final polishing and acid dip.2. After final inspection most dies went to the press room for use.2a. New dies with any sort of detected damage were repaired then polished. Sometimes the polishing was done with fine emery (flour emery) and resulted in s semi-mirror surface. 3. During use dies could become damaged through clashing, cracking, sinking etc. If the damage was not too great, the die could be repaired and the surface polished (as in 2a). This might also result in a semi-mirror surface.4. Sometimes the curvature of the die face (the 'basin') was not a good match for the planchets at one mint or another. (SF and Carson especially.) In these instances a new die was pressed against a zinc lap disk charged with abrasive and the curvature adjusted to better match the planchets. The results were better looking coins and longer die life.All of the above are easily seen in Morgan dollars and a tour of the VAMWorld site will present example of excessive polishing, spot polishing, abrasive contamination and other repair-related problems.PS: A PL surface gradually returns to a normal one as the semi-mirror of abraded by the planchets. The coin’s surface is a composite between the die and the set of planchets. Also, this is why there are “PL” 2009 SG imitations – the planchets were polished and this polish was gradually transferred to the working dies.(I hope the OP on PCGS gets to read this thread - it was started in hopes of being helpful.)

 

Great stuff Roger.....now as far as real-world applications:

 

(1) How does the difference in coin-making from today (digital, presses with lighter ton strikeage) affect what you wrote compared to 50-100+ years ago ? Think back to the 1907 EHR Saint Gaudens (needed up to 9 strikes with a 170 ton press) vs. the 2009 UHR (1 strike @ 55 tons).

 

(2) In the case of the 2009 UHR, they are getting the PL coins early and late from the (used) dies. So you're saying it's the planchet -- for sure ?

 

(3) Why would the Mint keep us in the dark on why/how the PL coins came about ? Are they afraid someone might counterfeit the technology ?

[RWB]

#2 & #3.

The 2009 "PL" pieces are not intentional technology....they occurred when normal dies struck a large number of polished planchets. The dies gradually abraded to match the planchet surface.

 

No 2009 new dies were polished to mirror-like surfaces because the curvature was too great to control the abrasion and produce a uniform surface. Had the dies been polished, you would have seen hundreds of variations on "PL" and "semi-PL" and "almost really deep mirror PL" and "Granny's special PL jelly," and so forth.

 

#1.

1907 pieces were struck on 0.900 fine gold planchets. Much harder metal than pure gold. The "eagle diameter" planchets took fewer strikes because the pressure was concentrated on a smaller area then for a normal DE. The normal-size DEs required 7 blows (not 9) at about 110 to 150 tons - the dies of that era could not stand more than 150 tons/ sq in.

 

The 2009 pieces were made in 0.9999 gold with a two-stroke hydraulic medal press (similar to the ones used to strike the 5-oz silver concoctions). [A two-stroke press gives two full blows in very quick succession. This avoids having to anneal the alloy between strikes. For 0.9999 gold, it doesn’t matter since the stuff does not work harden like 0.900 gold.) Modern die steel is much better than that available a century ago, as is press technology. Most modern dies are made using Micron brand machine cutting tools. The 2009 dies, according to a die specialist at Philadelphia that I spoke with informally several years ago, were roughed out by machine tool, then finished with a conventional hub, and deburred/cleaned and finished by hand. (This is a variation of what is called “preforming.”)

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks, Roger...you answered all my questions ! Ordered your book a few minutes ago, BTW, and will read it right after I knock-off Bowers Double-Eagle Red Book. (thumbs u

[DWLange]

When I speak to my students at the ANA Summer Seminar I explain the difference between new dies for currency strikes and repolished dies this way:

 

Imagine a sheet of aluminum foil. The duller side is the die's original finish, and the bright side is the repolished finish.

 

Of course, this doesn't apply to dies made during the past 25 years or so, which seem to have a hard, brilliant finish when new. This is likely the product of chromium plating, previously used only for proof dies.

[RWB]

Modern dies are coated by other processes. Ordinary plating leaves too many gaps and inconsistencies.

 

Look up the thesis: "Surface engineering of coinage dies," by H. Yasbandha, University of Wollongong. It's an old (2001), but good introduction to modern die work.

 

There's also a little about this in From Mine to Mint - but not enough to justify buying the book.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

If you are talking about 'smooth perfection' on the dies and no imperfections, with today's precise measurements (microns and angstroms) and digital technology, use of lasers, etc.....can't they make such a quantum jump in die quality compared to 30 years ago let alone 50-100 years ago ?

 

I read about the digital process involving the post-Janvier lathe in the little booklet that came with the 2009 UHR and it was fascinating (most of it went over my head, but it was still fascinating ).

[RWB]

Great precision is possible. So is great ugliness as witness the "snakeskin frosted proofs” of recent years.

 

Direct pressing is capable of exquisite transfer, but it is hard to do on a very large scale. Modern steel is carefully made and very tough, but it is also very particular about working and production conditions.

 

[DaveG]

(I hope the OP on PCGS gets to read this thread - it was started in hopes of being helpful.)

 

 

I've posted a link to this thread ATS.

[GoldFinger1969]

Great precision is possible. So is great ugliness as witness the "snakeskin frosted proofs” of recent years. Direct pressing is capable of exquisite transfer, but it is hard to do on a very large scale. Modern steel is carefully made and very tough, but it is also very particular about working and production conditions.

 

From the 2009 UHR booklet:

 

".....the United States Mint at West Point...recommended coating the dies to allow die-cleaning and to eliminate the contamination that appeared on the dies and trial strikes. It tested chrome-plated and Particle Vapor Deposition (PVD)-coated dies, electing to proceed with the chrome process. It also determined that a better coin would result from using a softer blank with a slightly upset profile."