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newp 1825 half, GTG & Do you like it?

Started by yonico,

26 posts in this topic

yonico

yonico

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Thank you all for your comments..

 

 

VF 35 or XF 40. Tough to judge with the neckline worn flat. Prolly closer to 35 but nice, nice coin.

 

i appreciate your opinion, but i don't think the neckline is worn flat..

 

 

I like this lady. But then, I'm a sucker for blue toning. :grin: Looks like a LDS O-116. I'll say XF45.

 

Carl

 

yep. you got it. thanks!

 

 

It looks nice and approximately AU50-53 to me.

 

that was exactly what i thought when i saw the pics. looked like a nice AU50 to me.

 

 

The reverse is weakly struck but the toning is nice. XF45 to me.

 

thank you.

a weak strike should not affect a coin's grade (in circulated grades), should it?

 

 

 

 

 

PCGS called it XF45

 

 

_572_zps8afc4ad6.jpg

 

 

 

 

and here's an example of PCGS AU50 bust half for comparison:

 

 

99acac5684e8183a7c15354d6ef675f8_large_zpsc9f7fd6c.jpeg

 

DSC_0086_edited-1_995dc4ec-d1b7-4364-96a6-458a77ed58ec_large_zps91dbf71c.jpg

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BillJones

BillJones

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Posted

The two coins should switch grades.

 

That AU-50 has been cleaned and looks dead with no luster. Even if it has some luster, it has that unnatural white color of a cleaned coin. It is an example of how the AU-50 grade has been "de-graded."

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yonico

yonico

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The two coins should switch grades.

 

That AU-50 has been cleaned and looks dead with no luster. Even if it has some luster, it has that unnatural white color of a cleaned coin. It is an example of how the AU-50 grade has been "de-graded."

 

I know!

 

Just to be clear, the AU50 is not mine, just took pics off ebay and posted it for comparison.

I won't buy a coin like this...

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MBA101

MBA101

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

That said your 1825 looks like a 45, but if it has half its luster, could go 50+. Toning sometimes will downgrade coins for whatever reason, including the graders thinking that it could possibly even be hiding something.

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BillJones

BillJones

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

That said your 1825 looks like a 45, but if it has half its luster, could go 50+. Toning sometimes will downgrade coins for whatever reason, including the graders thinking that it could possibly even be hiding something.

 

 

Grading is based upon sharpness, luster or lack there of, color, originality and overall appearance. A professional grader should be able to work through these differences regardless of the die variety. I understand that the average collector might have problems with die variety differences, but we are paying people for higher standards here.

 

There nothing natural about the AU-50 as shown. It has been stripped of it's original surface and has a very unnatural look. You can argue that the toned coin is an EF-45, but you would have tough time convincing me that the AU-50 coin is a better coin than EF-45.

 

As for toning comment, that is off base. A professional grader has look through the toning. If it is so dark that you can't see through well, or if a coin has been AT'd to hide something, that's one thing. If it just natural toning, then that is not an excuse for a down grade. You can't just throw up your hands and say, "It's toned therefore I'm down grading because I can see through the toning." If that is your approach to all toned coins, then I would suggest that you are not cut out to be a grader.

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yonico

yonico

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so.

 

 

 

Toning sometimes will downgrade coins for whatever reason, including the graders thinking that it could possibly even be hiding something.

 

i disagree with this comment, especially with the last part of it that i highlighted

 

if the graders THINK that it could POSSIBLY even be hiding something, and downgrade it because they're not sure - i will take my grading fees back, thank you very much, and keep the coin raw. this is exactly why we agree to pay the grading fees, and i'm sure this is not how graders work.

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$ilverHawk

$ilverHawk

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

"i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so."

 

Die wear is not the same as a weak strike. What I believe that MBA101 is pointing out is that due to the various Obverse and Reverse dies that were used in striking a CBH in a certain year, and the state of the dies used to strike the CBH, the evaluation of a circulated CBH must be done in comparison with coins from the same die marriage and die state.

 

That is exactly the reason that you will see the examples you offered differ in grading parameters--you have to compare apples to apples.

 

Edgar Souders gives a very good commentary in "Bust Half Fever".

 

I don't agree with MBA101 vis a vis toning hiding issues. A reasonable grader can usually see through surface issues.

 

Carl

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Mark T

Mark T

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Late to the party here , I like the look of this coin and would have graded it Au 50 .

I agree with MBA on the grading comparison comment, if you want to make comparisons best to at the least stay with the same year . If you want to break it down further then you can compare the same die marriage.

 

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FishyOne

FishyOne

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so.

 

I believe you are mistaken. I am of the understanding that strike characteristics can be evaluated when determining circulated grades all the way down to VF. This could include die state or any other issue. I further understand that below VF these issues are almost universally disregarded when assigning a grade.

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yonico

yonico

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

"i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so."

 

Die wear is not the same as a weak strike. What I believe that MBA101 is pointing out is that due to the various Obverse and Reverse dies that were used in striking a CBH in a certain year, and the state of the dies used to strike the CBH, the evaluation of a circulated CBH must be done in comparison with coins from the same die marriage and die state.

 

That is exactly the reason that you will see the examples you offered differ in grading parameters--you have to compare apples to apples.

 

Edgar Souders gives a very good commentary in "Bust Half Fever".

 

I don't agree with MBA101 vis a vis toning hiding issues. A reasonable grader can usually see through surface issues.

 

Carl

 

They're 2 different things, yes. And both are irrelevant in the grading of circulated coins, I think.

 

I read grading guidelines that I posted in the message below, that state there are 3 factors taken into consideration in the grading of coins AU and lower: wear, marks and luster.

 

Beyond that, other factors do NOT have any effect on the technical grade of a circulated coin.

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yonico

yonico

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so.

 

I believe you are mistaken. I am of the understanding that strike characteristics can be evaluated when determining circulated grades all the way down to VF. This could include die state or any other issue. I further understand that below VF these issues are almost universally disregarded when assigning a grade.

 

Not according to PCGS grading guidelines.

 

PCGS website clearly states that when grading circulated coins, 3 factors are comprising a Colin's technical grade: wear, marks, luster (On AU coins. For XF and lower, color and originality replace luster), And that's all.

 

While PCGS mentions the strike quality as a factor in the grading of UNCIRCULATED coins and PROOF coins, they don't mention it in the grading of circulated coins, and say the only things that affect the technical grade are wear, marks, and luster.

 

From PCGS grading guideline:

 

Eye Appeal is one component of grade. For coins grading above MS/PR 60, eye appeal is one of the four components of grade.

 

 

 

For Mint State and Proof coins, the three factors comprising a coin's "technical grade" are:

 

- Number and severity of marks and abrasions

- Luster, or Reflectivity for Proofs

- Strike, which is rarely a problem for proofs and strike is expected to be sharp, a weak strike being a deduction in the case of proofs.

 

 

 

 

For Circulated coins, there are:

 

- The amount of wear. This is by far the most important factor in the grading of circulated coins.

- Marks and abrasions. Depending on the grade, a certain amount of marks and abrasions are expected with circulated coins. Severe or unusually serious marks "for the grade" can be a negative. The higher the circulated grade, the less severe marks can be before they would effect grade.

- Luster. AU (Almost Uncirculated) coins should have some original luster. For lower grades color and originality have the same effect on grading as luster does for higher grades.

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FishyOne

FishyOne

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Posted
the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so.

 

I believe you are mistaken. I am of the understanding that strike characteristics can be evaluated when determining circulated grades all the way down to VF. This could include die state or any other issue. I further understand that below VF these issues are almost universally disregarded when assigning a grade.

 

Not according to PCGS grading guidelines.

 

PCGS website clearly states that when grading circulated coins, 3 factors are comprising a Colin's technical grade: wear, marks, luster (On AU coins. For XF and lower, color and originality replace luster), And that's all.

 

While PCGS mentions the strike quality as a factor in the grading of UNCIRCULATED coins and PROOF coins, they don't mention it in the grading of circulated coins, and say the only things that affect the technical grade are wear, marks, and luster.

 

From PCGS grading guideline:

 

Eye Appeal is one component of grade. For coins grading above MS/PR 60, eye appeal is one of the four components of grade.

 

 

 

For Mint State and Proof coins, the three factors comprising a coin's "technical grade" are:

 

- Number and severity of marks and abrasions

- Luster, or Reflectivity for Proofs

- Strike, which is rarely a problem for proofs and strike is expected to be sharp, a weak strike being a deduction in the case of proofs.

 

 

 

 

For Circulated coins, there are:

 

- The amount of wear. This is by far the most important factor in the grading of circulated coins.

- Marks and abrasions. Depending on the grade, a certain amount of marks and abrasions are expected with circulated coins. Severe or unusually serious marks "for the grade" can be a negative. The higher the circulated grade, the less severe marks can be before they would effect grade.

- Luster. AU (Almost Uncirculated) coins should have some original luster. For lower grades color and originality have the same effect on grading as luster does for higher grades.

 

What I'm trying to say is this: A coin with VF level sharpness can be graded XF because of strike characteristics. Likewise, a coin with XF level sharpness can be graded AU because of strike characteristics. Whether the TPG put it in print or not, that's what happens and I think most of us realize that. They are grading on the actual amount of wear with respect given to strike: i.e. "This coin looks VF30 but it's really an XF40 because it was poorly struck."

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yonico

yonico

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the only true way to compare bust half grades is to post 2 coins of the same die marriage and die state. Otherwise, it truly means nothing as coins struck from different dies will have very different characteristics, and even die wear will be evident in the final judgment, right or wrong.

 

i think, and correct me if i'm wrong, that weak strike does not affect (should not affect..?) the grade of circulated coins.

i mean, i can maybe understand how a coin goes MS67 instead of MS68 because of a weak strike, but in XF levels?? i don't think so.

 

I believe you are mistaken. I am of the understanding that strike characteristics can be evaluated when determining circulated grades all the way down to VF. This could include die state or any other issue. I further understand that below VF these issues are almost universally disregarded when assigning a grade.

 

Not according to PCGS grading guidelines.

 

PCGS website clearly states that when grading circulated coins, 3 factors are comprising a Colin's technical grade: wear, marks, luster (On AU coins. For XF and lower, color and originality replace luster), And that's all.

 

While PCGS mentions the strike quality as a factor in the grading of UNCIRCULATED coins and PROOF coins, they don't mention it in the grading of circulated coins, and say the only things that affect the technical grade are wear, marks, and luster.

 

From PCGS grading guideline:

 

Eye Appeal is one component of grade. For coins grading above MS/PR 60, eye appeal is one of the four components of grade.

 

 

 

For Mint State and Proof coins, the three factors comprising a coin's "technical grade" are:

 

- Number and severity of marks and abrasions

- Luster, or Reflectivity for Proofs

- Strike, which is rarely a problem for proofs and strike is expected to be sharp, a weak strike being a deduction in the case of proofs.

 

 

 

 

For Circulated coins, there are:

 

- The amount of wear. This is by far the most important factor in the grading of circulated coins.

- Marks and abrasions. Depending on the grade, a certain amount of marks and abrasions are expected with circulated coins. Severe or unusually serious marks "for the grade" can be a negative. The higher the circulated grade, the less severe marks can be before they would effect grade.

- Luster. AU (Almost Uncirculated) coins should have some original luster. For lower grades color and originality have the same effect on grading as luster does for higher grades.

 

What I'm trying to say is this: A coin with VF level sharpness can be graded XF because of strike characteristics. Likewise, a coin with XF level sharpness can be graded AU because of strike characteristics. Whether the TPG put it in print or not, that's what happens and I think most of us realize that. They are grading on the actual amount of wear with respect given to strike: i.e. "This coin looks VF30 but it's really an XF40 because it was poorly struck."

 

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying.

 

I see your point :idea:

 

thanks!

 

and thanks everybody for your comments!

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yonico

yonico

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Thank you all for the nice comments!

 

I got the coin Friday, and I've honestly never seen an XF coin with that much luster! Pics are accurate color-wise, but the luster under the color and around the devices is very strong.

 

I'm very happy with it

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MBA101

MBA101

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I am not saying you guys are wrong about what I said about die marriages and toning, but it is what I am seeing out of PCGS, as they often grade coins with weak or odd strikes lower than they should, and I have many times seen toned bust halves graded lower than untoned or lightly toned examples with the same wear. And they are always questioning color, even when there is nothing wrong with a coin.

 

Here is an example (just supplying a link to my site to make it easy)

 

http://maibockaddict.com/1813-o-108a-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml

 

Top coin NGC graded AU53, and it has 53 luster (better than 50%).

 

Bottom coin is somewhat dark, but has 75% luster (full luster in fields) and PCGS gave it a 50. There is nothing that i can see that would downgrade the coin other than the toning.

 

The graders do not always know strike characteristics, and are often conservative when it comes to toning, and I don't care what anyone says, the grading services are inconsistent with grading bust halves.

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