Strong Bids on Toned Peace $ in Legend Sale...

[MarkFeld]

Trying to get back on topic:

 

"Final sale price: $3,055.00"

[TonerGuy]

Trying to get back on topic:

 

"Final sale price: $3,055.00"

 

Thank you...

 

As for the raw coin I linked to, I see no reason to believe that coin is not MA. I have seen similar toning patterns in both NGC and PCGS plastic numerous times. Perhaps some standards have changed recently but overall that toned Peace will end up in plastic eventually. Someone might have to wait a year or two though.

 

I can state that NGC has gotten tougher recently on some modern toners - causing me to join PCGS and submit there. 0-12 at NGC turned into 12 for 12 at PCGS.

 

Toning is an ever moving target is my point.

 

As for the PCGS/Kool-Aid/CAC graphic... well its pretty funny. And at least in some way its explains a $3055.00 final price. That coin is not a $3000 toned Peace $.

[MarkFeld]

Trying to get back on topic:

 

"Final sale price: $3,055.00"

 

Thank you...

 

As for the raw coin I linked to, I see no reason to believe that coin is not MA. I have seen similar toning patterns in both NGC and PCGS plastic numerous times. Perhaps some standards have changed recently but overall that toned Peace will end up in plastic eventually. Someone might have to wait a year or two though.

 

I can state that NGC has gotten tougher recently on some modern toners - causing me to join PCGS and submit there. 0-12 at NGC turned into 12 for 12 at PCGS.

 

Toning is an ever moving target is my point.

 

As for the PCGS/Kool-Aid/CAC graphic... well its pretty funny. And at least in some way its explains a $3055.00 final price. That coin is not a $3000 toned Peace $.

 

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

Your're correct, the auction coin is not a "$3000 toned Peace $". It's a $3055 toned Peace $. At least two bidders and the auction house disagree with you.

[BROADSTRUCK]

Trying to get back on topic:

 

"Final sale price: $3,055.00"

 

Thank you...

 

As for the raw coin I linked to, I see no reason to believe that coin is not MA. I have seen similar toning patterns in both NGC and PCGS plastic numerous times. Perhaps some standards have changed recently but overall that toned Peace will end up in plastic eventually. Someone might have to wait a year or two though.

 

I can state that NGC has gotten tougher recently on some modern toners - causing me to join PCGS and submit there. 0-12 at NGC turned into 12 for 12 at PCGS.

 

Toning is an ever moving target is my point.

 

As for the PCGS/Kool-Aid/CAC graphic... well its pretty funny. And at least in some way its explains a $3055.00 final price. That coin is not a $3000 toned Peace $.

 

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

Your're correct, the auction coin is not a "$3000 toned Peace $". It's a $3055 toned Peace $. At least two bidders and the auction house disagree with you.

 

Might as well just call it a $3,075.00 Toned Peace... As don't forget to add another $20.00 for shipping!

[MarkFeld]

Trying to get back on topic:

 

"Final sale price: $3,055.00"

 

Thank you...

 

As for the raw coin I linked to, I see no reason to believe that coin is not MA. I have seen similar toning patterns in both NGC and PCGS plastic numerous times. Perhaps some standards have changed recently but overall that toned Peace will end up in plastic eventually. Someone might have to wait a year or two though.

 

I can state that NGC has gotten tougher recently on some modern toners - causing me to join PCGS and submit there. 0-12 at NGC turned into 12 for 12 at PCGS.

 

Toning is an ever moving target is my point.

 

As for the PCGS/Kool-Aid/CAC graphic... well its pretty funny. And at least in some way its explains a $3055.00 final price. That coin is not a $3000 toned Peace $.

 

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

Your're correct, the auction coin is not a "$3000 toned Peace $". It's a $3055 toned Peace $. At least two bidders and the auction house disagree with you.

 

Might as well just call it a $3,075.00 Toned Peace... As don't forget to add another $20.00 for shipping!

 

What if it was picked up and not shipped? Would it be a $3055 coin, and/or would you include airfare and other expenses in the price if the winning bidder flew there?

[physics-fan3.14]

Trying to get back on topic:

 

"Final sale price: $3,055.00"

 

Thank you...

 

As for the raw coin I linked to, I see no reason to believe that coin is not MA. I have seen similar toning patterns in both NGC and PCGS plastic numerous times. Perhaps some standards have changed recently but overall that toned Peace will end up in plastic eventually. Someone might have to wait a year or two though.

 

I can state that NGC has gotten tougher recently on some modern toners - causing me to join PCGS and submit there. 0-12 at NGC turned into 12 for 12 at PCGS.

 

Toning is an ever moving target is my point.

 

As for the PCGS/Kool-Aid/CAC graphic... well its pretty funny. And at least in some way its explains a $3055.00 final price. That coin is not a $3000 toned Peace $.

 

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

Your're correct, the auction coin is not a "$3000 toned Peace $". It's a $3055 toned Peace $. At least two bidders and the auction house disagree with you.

 

Might as well just call it a $3,075.00 Toned Peace... As don't forget to add another $20.00 for shipping!

 

What if it was picked up and not shipped? Would it be a $3055 coin, and/or would you include airfare and other expenses in the price if the winning bidder flew there?

 

A dealer would have to include those expenses when trying to price it for resale

[TonerGuy]

 

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

Your're correct, the auction coin is not a "$3000 toned Peace $". It's a $3055 toned Peace $. At least two bidders and the auction house disagree with you.

 

Just because 2 people over bid doesnt make it so...

 

No different than the toned 23-S in the Legend sale that sold for less in the HA auction. And I suspect will sell for even less the next time it goes on the auction block.

 

I would really like to see the price of toned Peace $ equal that of toned Morgans - someday. However, I dont think these two auction results are indicative of the real value of toned Peace $. I would call them abnormalities in relation to the prices that I have seen recently for comparable coins.

[brg5658]

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

I would say the same thing about the PCGS TrueView images that Legend used to sell this coin. I also found it interesting that Legend doesn't include full slab reverse images.

[mkman123]

that seller of the raw peace tonerguy was talking about is a member ATS. He knows his coins so I'm sure he probably has tried submitting that peace before.

[MarkFeld]

 

The coin you linked looks to be NT, but the images have the look of being juiced, even if unintentionally.

 

Your're correct, the auction coin is not a "$3000 toned Peace $". It's a $3055 toned Peace $. At least two bidders and the auction house disagree with you.

 

Just because 2 people over bid doesnt make it so...

 

No different than the toned 23-S in the Legend sale that sold for less in the HA auction. And I suspect will sell for even less the next time it goes on the auction block.

 

I would really like to see the price of toned Peace $ equal that of toned Morgans - someday. However, I dont think these two auction results are indicative of the real value of toned Peace $. I would call them abnormalities in relation to the prices that I have seen recently for comparable coins.

 

It does make it so, at that time in that instance. Of course, that could change quickly and dramatically.

 

But - and this is a serious question - if you prefer not to make use of the price realized in a public auction, what mechanism would you opt for, instead? One other option (which I believe to be inferior) would be opinions from those of us who have not seen the coin in hand and who might not even participate in that segment of the market.

[TonerGuy]

 

It does make it so, at that time in that instance. Of course, that could change quickly and dramatically.

 

But - and this is a serious question - if you prefer not to make use of the price realized in a public auction, what mechanism would you opt for, instead? One other option (which I believe to be inferior) would be opinions from those of us who have not seen the coin in hand and who might not even participate in that segment of the market.

 

This is why in an earlier thread I was trying to see if there could be a "grey sheet" for toned coins and my idea was thoroughly trumped as impossible. However, I still hold out hope. In this thread there seems to be at least some consensus on the value/price of a reverse toned Morgan --

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7438304#Post7438304

 

Auction prices are one area that must be taken into consideration when considering price/value but two people who get emotional involved in the bidding can effect the price/value to a level that it now becomes an anomaly and it must be disregarded.

 

You also have to take into consideration Heritage auction prices realized (as well as all other auction houses), Ebay auctions prices realized, BIN prices on Ebay as well as dealer sites and if possible, private sales. And from all of these sources you can throw out the lows and highs (anomalies) and come to some understanding of a median price range.

 

From that I think you can work through a "grey sheet" for toned coins. For instance I believe the coin that is the subject of this thread is probably a $500-$750 coin based on the grade, CAC, the grading company that certified it and the color on the obverse. My opinion is based on my tracking of all of the those pricing sources over the course of several years (3-5 yrs).

 

Ive seen common date MS65 coins sell for $750-$1000 and MS66 coins for $1500-$2500. I havent seen any other MS64 coins sell for a level higher than MS66 coins. Though there are numerous MS64 toned Peace $ offered on several dealers sites for $1500+ I dont see them selling though.

 

My concern is that too many newbs are overpaying for toned coins and when they try to resell they lose money and then turn away from the toner market. This is why I think some price guide is essential for the health of the toned market. As you say, toned coins have been popular for 30+ yrs, there has to be enough data to extrapolate somewhat accurate price ranges from...

[MarkFeld]

 

It does make it so, at that time in that instance. Of course, that could change quickly and dramatically.

 

But - and this is a serious question - if you prefer not to make use of the price realized in a public auction, what mechanism would you opt for, instead? One other option (which I believe to be inferior) would be opinions from those of us who have not seen the coin in hand and who might not even participate in that segment of the market.

 

This is why in an earlier thread I was trying to see if there could be a "grey sheet" for toned coins and my idea was thoroughly trumped as impossible. However, I still hold out hope. In this thread there seems to be at least some consensus on the value/price of a reverse toned Morgan --

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7438304#Post7438304

 

Auction prices are one area that must be taken into consideration when considering price/value but two people who get emotional involved in the bidding can effect the price/value to a level that it now becomes an anomaly and it must be disregarded.

 

You also have to take into consideration Heritage auction prices realized (as well as all other auction houses), Ebay auctions prices realized, BIN prices on Ebay as well as dealer sites and if possible, private sales. And from all of these sources you can throw out the lows and highs (anomalies) and come to some understanding of a median price range.

 

From that I think you can work through a "grey sheet" for toned coins. For instance I believe the coin that is the subject of this thread is probably a $500-$750 coin based on the grade, CAC, the grading company that certified it and the color on the obverse. My opinion is based on my tracking of all of the those pricing sources over the course of several years (3-5 yrs).

 

Ive seen common date MS65 coins sell for $750-$1000 and MS66 coins for $1500-$2500. I havent seen any other MS64 coins sell for a level higher than MS66 coins. Though there are numerous MS64 toned Peace $ offered on several dealers sites for $1500+ I dont see them selling though.

 

My concern is that too many newbs are overpaying for toned coins and when they try to resell they lose money and then turn away from the toner market. This is why I think some price guide is essential for the health of the toned market. As you say, toned coins have been popular for 30+ yrs, there has to be enough data to extrapolate somewhat accurate price ranges from...

 

I'll reply with just a few points:

 

1) You don't know that the top bidders for the auction coin were "newbs". For all we know, they were/are highly knowledgeable and experienced in that segment of the market.

 

2) As ar as I know, you didn't see the coin in hand.

 

3) The auction house, which is familiar with that market and which did see the coin in hand, estimated it at $3000. To me, at least, that soundly trumps opinions expressed here by those who did not see the coin and/or are not active participants in that market.

[mommam17]

"The eye appeal will make your eyes pop!" This is the description of the coin. My opinion is it has been underestimated by some here. Also, not the coin for me.

[mumu]

Don't know if this has been answered and after 2 pages of posts Im too lazy too look but is there a price history of other auctions/sales of this coin?

[MarkFeld]

Don't know if this has been answered and after 2 pages of posts Im too lazy too look but is there a price history of other auctions/sales of this coin?

 

In a very brief search, I was unable to find a previous appearance of the coin with that cert. number.

[TonerGuy]

I'll reply with just a few points:

 

1) You don't know that the top bidders for the auction coin were "newbs". For all we know, they were/are highly knowledgeable and experienced in that segment of the market.

 

2) As ar as I know, you didn't see the coin in hand.

 

3) The auction house, which is familiar with that market and which did see the coin in hand, estimated it at $3000. To me, at least, that soundly trumps opinions expressed here by those who did not see the coin and/or are not active participants in that market.

 

I will answer with a few points.

 

1) We dont know so that cuts both ways. The bidders could have been newbs and this could be the first toned Peace $ either one of them ever bid on.

 

2) I didnt but Ive examined hundreds of toned Peace $ and have seen thousands of photos of toned Peace $ and have taken thousands of photos of toned Peace $ over 12 yrs. None which is as good as seeing the coin in hand I stand by my assessment.

 

3) The auction house as an economic interest in creating a market for the coin at $3000 so you cannot put much faith in puffery.

[MarkFeld]

I'll reply with just a few points:

 

1) You don't know that the top bidders for the auction coin were "newbs". For all we know, they were/are highly knowledgeable and experienced in that segment of the market.

 

2) As ar as I know, you didn't see the coin in hand.

 

3) The auction house, which is familiar with that market and which did see the coin in hand, estimated it at $3000. To me, at least, that soundly trumps opinions expressed here by those who did not see the coin and/or are not active participants in that market.

 

I will answer with a few points.

 

1) We dont know so that cuts both ways. The bidders could have been newbs and this could be the first toned Peace $ either one of them ever bid on.

 

2) I didnt but Ive examined hundreds of toned Peace $ and have seen thousands of photos of toned Peace $ and have taken thousands of photos of toned Peace $ over 12 yrs. None which is as good as seeing the coin in hand I stand by my assessment.

 

3) The auction house as an economic interest in creating a market for the coin at $3000 so you cannot put much faith in puffery.

 

1) That's true, but based on the circumstances, I would bet against it.

 

2) Even if you don't, I know better than to be that certain regarding what a coin really looks like, based just on an image.

 

3) There would be considerable downside risk to the reputation of the auction house, if they were to make a habit of providing unrealistically high estimates - especially ones which were off by as much as you seem to think they were in this case.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

I will take the combination of the images, the auction estimate and the price realized, as a much better indication of the coin's fair market value, than the assessments resulting just from viewing on-line images.

 

I believe that the market for that particular coin has spoken, regardless of what any of us think of it. And I say that, even though I would have estimated it at a much lower price. The difference is that I am perfectly willing to say that I must have been mistaken.

[jom]

I believe that the market for that particular coin has spoken, regardless of what any of us think of it. And I say that, even though I would have estimated it at a much lower price. The difference is that I am perfectly willing to say that I must have been mistaken.

 

There are all kinds of coins that are sold that go way above what one might think its value is. I've seen it many times (and have DONE it many times probably).

 

However, that doesn't mean one can't simply pass on the coin and move onto the next. So I don't why it took 6 pages of a thread to get to that point. It's not the auction house, the TPG nor CAC who is at "fault" (if there is any). Two people thought it was worth $3300. The best part about it is that neither of those people were ME.

 

jom

[TonerGuy]

And I say that, even though I would have estimated it at a much lower price.

 

Well then in essence we dont have to agree to disagree... when in fact we agree.

 

Im happy the coin sold for $3000+ I hope it resells for more...

 

A rising tide should lift all boats.

[mumu]

The market has also spoken, that the sale of this coin at that price, was worth 6 pages (in my case 2) of opinions.

[e1cnr]

I do not understand why some people are so upset, are you jealous? I have never seen the coin in question but realize it must be special. If I collected and dealt in toned PEACE dollars, I would be overjoyed because the value of my inventory just went up.

 

TonerGuy, since you have taken photos of thousands of photos of toned Peace dollars, could you start another thread? Something like "The BEST 500 toned PEACE dollars I have ever pictured (out of over thousands pictured)". I am sure many of us here would appreciate what it takes to be a good toned PEACE dollar, from a dealer who specializes in them.

[TonerGuy]

I do not understand why some people are so upset, are you jealous? I have never seen the coin in question but realize it must be special. If I collected and dealt in toned PEACE dollars, I would be overjoyed because the value of my inventory just went up.

 

TonerGuy, since you have taken photos of thousands of photos of toned Peace dollars, could you start another thread? Something like "The BEST 500 toned PEACE dollars I have ever pictured (out of over thousands pictured)". I am sure many of us here would appreciate what it takes to be a good toned PEACE dollar, from a dealer who specializes in them.

 

First of I am not a dealer. Secondly I no longer post photos of coins that Ive owned or currently own or am thinking of purchasing.

 

However, I will post some pics of photos of NGC graded star toned Peace $ that I find exceptional and a good value for the price.

[e1cnr]

oh, so you are just spewing bs?

[MarkFeld]

oh, so you are just spewing bs?

 

No, he wasn't and that was beneath you.

[mumu]

Round 2...HERE...WE...GO

[Kurtdog]

Play nice back there, children. Don't make me pull this car over.

-Your Father

[mumu]

Despite it being raw, and I am fully aware and agree that the coin should be slabbed to see any real money, I get frustrated when I see coins like the one in this OP sell for absurd money and I couldn't even crack 350$ for this. But in the end I am happy as I've since decided this one will remain with me and eventually attempt to slab. The coin ended up being a gift and I will keep it as such rather than try and make money on it. Plus I think it fits my collection perfectly and allows me to sell my other 23.

 

Todd's image:

 

[mumu]

I posted that one because it has the same "bubbles" as the other raw coin posted here that is on ebay for 500$. If the coins are AT then I would guess a similar process was used on them.

[e1cnr]

oh, so you are just spewing bs?

 

No, he wasn't and that was beneath you.

 

You are correct Mark, I apologize TonerGuy

 

 

But I must say cream rises to the top, some auctionhouses will always get better prices than others because they have much higher average quality.

 

We all complain about eBay and some auction prices there, but it is somewhat like looking through a junkyard trying to find a GEM. The GEMS are definitely there but you have to walk over hundreds that are not so hot. Compare that to the Legend auction, where there are not many lots you wouldn't mind having (except they cost so much).

[Tradedollarnut]

That coin is not market acceptable