What does a CAC sticker really mean? -- A proposal

[EVillageProwler]

Please - spare me the BS Mr. Feld. Blind trust is out there and I stand by it.

 

Not Best, HT

 

That's what I thought. You made a statement that you couldn't/can't can't back up. And when you were called on it, instead of admitting it, you resorted to rudeness. I'm not going to spend the time to look, but I think I remember your having posted in favor or polite discussion.

 

HT has become partisan and entrenched in this thread -- neither of which is good for real science. Just ask the scientists who had to endure soviet ideology.

[Hard Times]

Please - spare me the BS Mr. Feld. Blind trust is out there and I stand by it.

 

Not Best, HT

 

That's what I thought. You made a statement that you couldn't/can't can't back up. And when you were called on it, instead of admitting it, you resorted to rudeness. I'm not going to spend the time to look, but I think I remember your having posted in favor or polite discussion.

 

Rudeness? How many times on these boards have you been rude to me and a host of others? Hundreds of times Mr. Feld, hundreds.

 

Mr. Feld, as in any other endeavor of life, there are those that have blind trust about grading opinions by those considered experts. There is blind trust in religion, politics, beer choice whatever. If you want to take issue of such obvious fact of life and come back rudely criticizing me, and then claim I m being rude, well, go figure. I am still not going to call out others about this by giving you examples just because you want to argue and make a big deal about it, and it doesn't mean there is no proof of blind trust because clearly there is. So get over it.

 

Mr. Curlis, I have been extremely courteous in debating these issues, even when some have resorted to name calling directed towards me simply because they disagree. But I have lost my patience with Mr. Feld who has been rude to me in dozens of posts. But Mr. Feld is primarily interested in criticizing anything he disagrees with, instead of having constructive dialog on an issue. Mr. Feld even sends PMs to people on these boards to attack them for what they have commented on ATS - I bet you did know that did you? Personally, I am sick of his negativity and won't respond again to him after this final note.

 

To those of you who do not support Brandon's suggested study , may I ask, what is there to lose by doing it and how can it possibly be a waste or time to have vital information about the consistency of professional graders? Collectors have everything to gain by having such information to guide them in their buying decisions. If I were rich, I would do the study myself and report the results.

 

HT

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Unfortunately, I couldn't bear to read more than a couple of pages in this thread.

 

At any rate, I've had the opportunity now to view - gosh, a few thousand CAC coins now? Some time ago, I pretty much became convinced that the sticker really has little to do with a coin's "grade". Rather, it's just a way to "tag" a coin that CAC wants to make a market in.

 

For what my little opinion is worth, numerous stickered coins are very nice REGARDLESS of grade. Many stickered coins are awful, but I'd say the "nice" ones definitely outnumber the "awful" ones.

 

I think they struggle some with copper, though.

[Hard Times]

Please - spare me the BS Mr. Feld. Blind trust is out there and I stand by it.

 

Not Best, HT

 

That's what I thought. You made a statement that you couldn't/can't can't back up. And when you were called on it, instead of admitting it, you resorted to rudeness. I'm not going to spend the time to look, but I think I remember your having posted in favor or polite discussion.

 

HT has become partisan and entrenched in this thread -- neither of which is good for real science. Just ask the scientists who had to endure soviet ideology.

 

As I have noted many times, I like and respect greatly CAC, and especially like and respect NGC, and PCGS given the information on coins they provide us with their grading decisions. But I make my own assessments and use their advice as it is, advice. I am not afraid to point out where they have erred in my opinion, and I certainly do not have blind trust in their assessments. That does not mean that I don't desire more information on their consistency in a well designed study that would help collectors. So not sure then why you think I am partisan and entrenched?

 

Real science? Show me your credentials with regards to how you know what real science is. Brandon is a scientist with a demonstrated record of scientific achievement through peer reviewed publication in major scientific journals. And you?

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

Unfortunately, I couldn't bear to read more than a couple of pages in this thread.

 

At any rate, I've had the opportunity now to view - gosh, a few thousand CAC coins now? Some time ago, I pretty much became convinced that the sticker really has little to do with a coin's "grade". Rather, it's just a way to "tag" a coin that CAC wants to make a market in.

 

For what my little opinion is worth, numerous stickered coins are very nice REGARDLESS of grade. Many stickered coins are awful, but I'd say the "nice" ones definitely outnumber the "awful" ones.

 

I think they struggle some with copper, though.

 

James, that is an excellent assessment and given your expertise, I hope others will take note. (thumbs u

 

Best, HT

[MarkFeld]

Please - spare me the BS Mr. Feld. Blind trust is out there and I stand by it.

 

Not Best, HT

 

That's what I thought. You made a statement that you couldn't/can't can't back up. And when you were called on it, instead of admitting it, you resorted to rudeness. I'm not going to spend the time to look, but I think I remember your having posted in favor or polite discussion.

 

Rudeness? How many times on these boards have you been rude to me and a host of others? Hundreds of times Mr. Feld, hundreds.

 

Mr. Feld, as in any other endeavor of life, there are those that have blind trust about grading opinions by those considered experts. There is blind trust in religion, politics, beer choice whatever. If you want to take issue of such obvious fact of life and come back rudely criticizing me, and then claim I m being rude, well, go figure. I am still not going to call out others about this by giving you examples just because you want to argue and make a big deal about it, and it doesn't mean there is no proof of blind trust because clearly there is. So get over it.

 

Mr. Curlis, I have been extremely courteous in debating these issues, even when some have resorted to name calling directed towards me simply because they disagree. But I have lost my patience with Mr. Feld who has been rude to me in dozens of posts. But Mr. Feld is primarily interested in criticizing anything he disagrees with, instead of having constructive dialog on an issue. Mr. Feld even sends PMs to people on these boards to attack them for what they have commented on ATS - I bet you did know that did you? Personally, I am sick of his negativity and won't respond again to him after this final note.

 

To those of you who do not support Brandon's suggested study , may I ask, what is there to lose by doing it and how can it possibly be a waste or time to have vital information about the consistency of professional graders? Collectors have everything to gain by having such information to guide them in their buying decisions. If I were rich, I would do the study myself and report the results.

 

HT

 

 

Yes, I chastised someone in a PM for intimating publicly that a fine dealer/seller had intentionally hidden flaws in an image of one of their coins, when he had no knowledge of it. And it wasn't the first time he had done something like that. I see he doesn't believe in the private nature of private messages.

 

I will give you points for consistency, however, for exaggerating again, in your above post (for example "hundreds of times").

 

Show me a single post of mine where (rather than disagreeing with you) I stooped to your level of rudeness, to the point of saying your post was BS, as you did. And if/when you do, I will apologize, as you should and as I doubt you will.

 

 

[Kurtdog]

He was just asking to be persuaded, HT. He wasn't persuaded. That's all I saw.

[jom]

Unfortunately, I couldn't bear to read more than a couple of pages in this thread.

 

At any rate, I've had the opportunity now to view - gosh, a few thousand CAC coins now? Some time ago, I pretty much became convinced that the sticker really has little to do with a coin's "grade". Rather, it's just a way to "tag" a coin that CAC wants to make a market in.

 

For what my little opinion is worth, numerous stickered coins are very nice REGARDLESS of grade. Many stickered coins are awful, but I'd say the "nice" ones definitely outnumber the "awful" ones.

 

I think they struggle some with copper, though.

 

See? Now this is a good assessment overall (although I know nothing about copper). CAC is really not all that different than the TPGs. Are they consistent? I don't know...but does it matter? It's really far more important that the TPGs be consistent with whatever grading standards they apply. CAC is only following up to market what they think are the better coins. Good for them.

 

Again, for the 1000th time, why not take CAC for what they are? It's another opinion and USE that in buying decisions. That doesn't mean blindly buying stuff but, IMO, all resources should be used when purchasing if at all possible. The criticism is blown WAY out of proportion here.

 

As to Mark: He does have a tendency to be terse...but the guy is NOT rude. It's really just way the internet/message boards are. There is a lack of eye contact and the "voice" which often makes messages seem more aggressive than they really are.

 

jom

[bochiman]

Please - spare me the BS Mr. Feld. Blind trust is out there and I stand by it.

 

Not Best, HT

 

That's what I thought. You made a statement that you couldn't/can't can't back up. And when you were called on it, instead of admitting it, you resorted to rudeness. I'm not going to spend the time to look, but I think I remember your having posted in favor or polite discussion.

 

Rudeness? How many times on these boards have you been rude to me and a host of others? Hundreds of times Mr. Feld, hundreds.

 

Mr. Feld, as in any other endeavor of life, there are those that have blind trust about grading opinions by those considered experts. There is blind trust in religion, politics, beer choice whatever. If you want to take issue of such obvious fact of life and come back rudely criticizing me, and then claim I m being rude, well, go figure. I am still not going to call out others about this by giving you examples just because you want to argue and make a big deal about it, and it doesn't mean there is no proof of blind trust because clearly there is. So get over it.

 

Mr. Curlis, I have been extremely courteous in debating these issues, even when some have resorted to name calling directed towards me simply because they disagree. But I have lost my patience with Mr. Feld who has been rude to me in dozens of posts. But Mr. Feld is primarily interested in criticizing anything he disagrees with, instead of having constructive dialog on an issue. Mr. Feld even sends PMs to people on these boards to attack them for what they have commented on ATS - I bet you did know that did you? Personally, I am sick of his negativity and won't respond again to him after this final note.

 

To those of you who do not support Brandon's suggested study , may I ask, what is there to lose by doing it and how can it possibly be a waste or time to have vital information about the consistency of professional graders? Collectors have everything to gain by having such information to guide them in their buying decisions. If I were rich, I would do the study myself and report the results.

 

HT

 

 

You are being rude. Mark has not been rude.

Mark doesn't get all fluffy and flowery. He states his piece and he gets (imho) very crisp and dispassionate about it and wants to just "hear the facts, and only the facts".

You, and others, come in with your emotions blazing and your minds made up and don't want to furnish any facts, that you claim to have, nor to listen to others who don't join in your group with pitchforks ablazing.

 

The thing that has been most informative about this thread has been NOTHING to do with CAC, but rather with some of the characters on this board who are so against CAC that they can't even see clearly.

 

Is CAC perfect? Heck no.

Do they claim to be? Not that I have seen. Where I have seen mistakes made, I have also seen them work to clean it up.

Do supporters of CAC admit CAC isn't perfect? Yep...from what I have seen.

Do detractors (as in this thread) admit when CAC works to clean things up or make things better? Nope. Not from what I have seen. Easier to just keep complaining.

Is there an understanding of what CAC really is and does? Apparently not. Quite a few opinions of their purpose and what they do have been tossed out. Sad, but funny.

 

Again, at the end though, I haven't seen Mark be rude to anyone in any post I have seen from him here, or even when he was on the PCGS boards. Not even when baited by trolls like you have been doing. He is a much better man than I, as I would have gone off on you, and a few others, unlike how he has handled it.

[James_OldeTowne]

As to Mark: He does have a tendency to be terse...but the guy is NOT rude. It's really just way the internet/message boards are.

I am not so sure. At the FUN Show, when Mark and I were standing in the same line at Starbucks, he wouldn't let me cut in front of him.

 

Now, that's just plain rude and uncalled-for !

[actuarian-migration]

If a coin is a very high end MS65 (for example), it often gets cracked out and resubmitted. Eventually, after multiple submissions, it will grade MS66. I have seen this happen; last year I sold a very high end PCGS/CAC MS65RD 1908 Indian cent to a dealer who paid me a very good price for it (based on that grade). It had a green CAC sticker and an Eagle Eye Photoseal. However, the CAC sticker was green not gold and the coin was definitely a 65. (CAC puts gold stickers on coins which are solidly undergraded.) Nevertheless, the dealer cracked it out and sent it back to PCGS and I saw it in his case in a MS66RD holder a few weeks later. Still later, I found out that the dealer sold the coin in the new unstickered holder for over $2300. As a 65, it would have brought no more than $800. That is where CAC comes in; I do not believe that they would have ever stickered the coin in the 66 holder. Nevertheless, you have to see the coin in the metal to know that the coin is not a solid 66. There is no way I could ever tell that from a photo. That is why I will not buy a gem coin without a CAC sticker unless I see it before I buy it or the difference in price over the next lower grade is small. If you buy coins remotely based on scans or photos, CAC stickers are of immense value.

[James_OldeTowne]

I will not buy a gem coin without a CAC sticker unless I see it before I buy it or the difference in price over the next lower grade is small. If you buy coins remotely based on scans or photos, CAC stickers are of immense value.

For me, a sticker of any kind makes no difference at all in this situation. Buying a coin sight-unseen removes about 95% of the fun (and, I think, the point) of collecting coins in the first place, and a sticker doesn't change that.

 

Why not buy a coin for your collection because you like it, rather than because someone else likes it?

[actuarian-migration]

Buying remotely from a dealer like David Lawrence is not the same as buying sight unseen. The photos on their web site are outstanding. However, even the best photo is not the same as having the coin in hand; if it were then PCGS could encapsulate coins based on photos! Nevertheless, some of us live in areas that are not served by the major coin shows and are not often able to travel to purchase coins.

[jom]

I will not buy a gem coin without a CAC sticker unless I see it before I buy it or the difference in price over the next lower grade is small. If you buy coins remotely based on scans or photos, CAC stickers are of immense value.

For me, a sticker of any kind makes no difference at all in this situation. Buying a coin sight-unseen removes about 95% of the fun (and, I think, the point) of collecting coins in the first place, and a sticker doesn't change that.

 

Why not buy a coin for your collection because you like it, rather than because someone else likes it?

 

Totally agree James. However, I can completely understand a situation actuarian mentions. You see a coin online and you debate to yourself whether you want to waste the sellers time by buying the coin with a potential of a return. The CAC does help to screen out (so to speak) coins that you might otherwise not bother the seller about. It doesn't hold 100% of the time but, like I've said earlier, it's just another opinion that can help in your buying.

 

Having said that I find some of the people who are real fans of CAC say things that are just absurd. Such as "I'd rather own the coin in the lower graded holder with the gold sticker than one graded higher with the green sticker". I mean, what's the difference if it's the SAME friggen COIN? I suppose they think the coin is now worth more since many people seem to go "ga-ga" over gold stickers...which is another fascinating result of the CAC phenomenon....and another subject altogether...

 

jom

[GoldFinger1969]

If you buy coins remotely based on scans or photos, CAC stickers are of immense value.

 

But not because it's CAC, because it's a 2nd grade/opinion, right ?

 

If the same coin was somehow graded by BOTH TPGs or if someone like Mark Feld vouched for a coin that you saw online having seen it himself, that would also add to someone's comfort level, IMO.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think the CAC folks have it EASIER than the initial TPG.

 

(1) If a coin is rated MS-65, they can more quickly scan for any major imperfections that would rate it BELOW that. The initial TPG has to start from scratch.

 

(2) For a TPG coin, if it comes back MS-65, you almost certainly know that 99.99% (or some other high number, pick one that you like ) of such coins would be graded within 3 grades (let's say, MS-63 to MS-66. So again, the CAC folks just have to look at that range for the most part. They don't have to worry about a wider range from like AU-55 to MS-65.

 

(3) Is CAC under the same business pressures as NGC/PCGS ? PCGS is publicly traded, too. If the TPGs are having 3 graders spend 60 seconds per coin but CAC is spending more because they have less volume, that's another advantage they have.

 

CAC is simply grading the graders. Reminds me of that "SEINFELD" episode where Kramer gets a scanner and he says "I'm watching the watchers, Jerry...."

[jom]

If you buy coins remotely based on scans or photos, CAC stickers are of immense value.

 

But not because it's CAC, because it's a 2nd grade/opinion, right ?

 

If the same coin was somehow graded by BOTH TPGs or if someone like Mark Feld vouched for a coin that you saw online having seen it himself, that would also add to someone's comfort level, IMO.

 

Of course....but Mark doesn't sticker coins. CAC does.

 

jom

[jom]

I think the CAC folks have it EASIER than the initial TPG.

 

(1) If a coin is rated MS-65, they can more quickly scan for any major imperfections that would rate it BELOW that. The initial TPG has to start from scratch.

 

(2) For a TPG coin, if it comes back MS-65, you almost certainly know that 99.99% (or some other high number, pick one that you like ) of such coins would be graded within 3 grades (let's say, MS-63 to MS-66. So again, the CAC folks just have to look at that range for the most part. They don't have to worry about a wider range from like AU-55 to MS-65.

 

(3) Is CAC under the same business pressures as NGC/PCGS ? PCGS is publicly traded, too. If the TPGs are having 3 graders spend 60 seconds per coin but CAC is spending more because they have less volume, that's another advantage they have.

 

CAC is simply grading the graders. Reminds me of that "SEINFELD" episode where Kramer gets a scanner and he says "I'm watching the watchers, Jerry...."

 

CAC is NOT a grading company. They never made that claim...so yeah...you're right. CAC is simply saying that place that particular coin in the top part of the grade catagory and they are willing to back it up with an offer. It's a marketing tool for them.

 

jom

[GoldFinger1969]

CAC is NOT a grading company. They never made that claim...so yeah...you're right. CAC is simply saying that place that particular coin in the top part of the grade catagory and they are willing to back it up with an offer. It's a marketing tool for them.jom

What's their offer policy again ? I know on their website they will buy back some MS-66 Saints at such-and-such a price.....is it coin-by-coin or do they say they will always buy back at 90% of some PCGS price or something ?

[jom]

CAC is NOT a grading company. They never made that claim...so yeah...you're right. CAC is simply saying that place that particular coin in the top part of the grade catagory and they are willing to back it up with an offer. It's a marketing tool for them.jom

What's their offer policy again ? I know on their website they will buy back some MS-66 Saints at such-and-such a price.....is it coin-by-coin or do they say they will always buy back at 90% of some PCGS price or something ?

 

I don't know off hand. The best thing to do is call them and ask....

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

Nevertheless, some of us live in areas that are not served by the major coin shows and are not often able to travel to purchase coins.

Unless you have mis-stated your location as "Southern Florida", there should definitely be some decent shows accessible to you throughout the year. And I know for a fact there are reputable dealers in southern Florida - it might be a good idea to form one or two strong relationships with them.

 

I would contend that having more trusted sets of eyes looking for coins you want in more venues is a far more valuable tool than stickers. (But then again, I don't know what you are collecting and that does make a difference.)

[MarkFeld]

CAC is NOT a grading company. They never made that claim...so yeah...you're right. CAC is simply saying that place that particular coin in the top part of the grade catagory and they are willing to back it up with an offer. It's a marketing tool for them.jom

What's their offer policy again ? I know on their website they will buy back some MS-66 Saints at such-and-such a price.....is it coin-by-coin or do they say they will always buy back at 90% of some PCGS price or something ?

 

What do you mean "buy back"? They don't sell to the public, so there is nothing to buy back.

 

It sounds like you might be asking about their market making. CAC posts bids on a multitude of CAC certified coins on one or more electronic coin trading networks. Their bids are generally quite strong relative to bids by other parties and/or relative to bids for non-CAC coins. And in most cases they are willing to buy quantities of the coins for which they place bids.Their bids are not tied to anyone else's, though I believe in many cases, CDN ("Graysheet") bids represent CAC bids.