Opinions on toning

[TonerGuy]

Study each series and get an idea of what toning patterns/color schemes are considered market acceptable by the TPGs. In the end, that is really all that matters.

 

+1 and great advice to anyone that wants to be a collector of toned coins.

 

And I will add that all series are different. What applies to Morgans doesnt apply to Peace $ or Jeffersons or JFKs. Every series tones differently.

[Kurtdog]

I have seen coins with those colors come straight out of cello sets so while it certainly could be AT.....it's not a no brainer AT coin in my book and there are many natural and unnatural ways the color could have gotten there.

Like being stored in a garage in the heat and humidity of Florida

exactly what I was thinking.....

I have always held the contention that a coin that develops questionable toning as the result of improper storage should still be considered a problem coin regardless of the intent of the coins owner. So while the toning may have occurred naturally, it is still not market acceptable and deserves to be given a details/genuine grade for questionable color.

How do you define improper storage?

Your example will work nicely.

Lehigh, if the garage in Florida was air-conditioned and humidity-controlled, would that be proper storage?

Of course

I see. And how exactly would you determine that? By testimony? By an affidavit? Would you require the affidavit to be notarized? Would the witness be subject to cross-examination on the issue? And that's how an expert like you collects toned coins, huh? I think I'm beginning to get the idea.

[kryptonitecomics]

I have always held the contention that a coin that develops questionable toning as the result of improper storage should still be considered a problem coin regardless of the intent of the coins owner. So while the toning may have occurred naturally, it is still not market acceptable and deserves to be given a details/genuine grade for questionable color.

 

How is it even possible to split hairs to that level? So basically any coin not put into an "approved" coin storage source would be net graded ? I assume you are talking about albums, envelopes and 2x2 holders. Are there other approved storage methods ?

 

And why would a coin that was put into a third party holder such as a velvet box or a cardboard frame and toned over 30 years be net graded ? Because people dont normally put coins into velvet boxes ? There's a company out there that sells a lot of velvet boxes so I suppose enough people do.

 

Besides a Florida attic can you list some other improper storage methods ?

 

 

 

The list is endless but it basically includes any storage method that yields a coin with an unusual toning pattern/color scheme for the series. It has nothing to do with splitting hairs. There is one simple fact that you guys are not considering. The grader has no idea how the coin was stored and certainly no idea about the intent of the coins owner. All he has to judge is the coin itself. So it makes no difference whether the owner of the coin intended to tone the coin or it happened accidentally. If the grader feels that the toning is questionable, you don't get to call them up and say "hey, i didn't artificially tone that coin, it was in my garage in Florida for the last 5 years!" The result is same, the coin has questionable toning. And if the coin was stored properly, in a climate controlled environment away from sulfur laden sources, the coin would almost certainly not end up with a details grade for questionable toning.

 

So I am sure that the next argument will be "what about target toned coins from coin albums?" And my answer is basically the same. The only difference is that storing coins in albums has long been an acceptable storage method and the toning patterns/color schemes that develop over years of storage are recognized by the graders as market acceptable. Now take that same album and put it in the Florida garage, and what happens. Perhaps some of the coins are deemed market acceptable and others are judged to have questionable toning.

 

My advice is don't worry about what storage methods are improper. Forget all about intent with relation toning. Study each series and get an idea of what toning patterns/color schemes are considered market acceptable by the TPGs. In the end, that is really all that matters.

 

 

I can't disagree with this.....market acceptable is all that matters these days and I see plenty of coins getting body bagged that I know are 100% natural but once they are removed from storage containers/conditions and handed to the graders...that history and story goes out the window. I think it's a double edge sword as many coins in original packaging are no brainers and only when removed from that packaging does the toning become questionable. On the flip side a coin doctor could certainly create his coins and perhaps put them in original packaging to throw a grader off so even if it;s to the detriment of the coins possibility of getting graded you have to let the coin do all the talking.

 

I used to send in raw coins still in the proof cello packaging thinking it would help my chances with getting colorful coins graded since the grader could see the coin was still sealed in the packaging......then I found out that the coins were removed from the packaging before it ever got to the graders

[lehigh96]

I have seen coins with those colors come straight out of cello sets so while it certainly could be AT.....it's not a no brainer AT coin in my book and there are many natural and unnatural ways the color could have gotten there.

Like being stored in a garage in the heat and humidity of Florida

exactly what I was thinking.....

I have always held the contention that a coin that develops questionable toning as the result of improper storage should still be considered a problem coin regardless of the intent of the coins owner. So while the toning may have occurred naturally, it is still not market acceptable and deserves to be given a details/genuine grade for questionable color.

How do you define improper storage?

Your example will work nicely.

Lehigh, if the garage in Florida was air-conditioned and humidity-controlled, would that be proper storage?

Of course

I see. And how exactly would you determine that? By testimony? By an affidavit? Would you require the affidavit to be notarized? Would the witness be subject to cross-examination on the issue? And that's how an expert like you collects toned coins, huh? I think I'm beginning to get the idea.

 

Once again, you have missed the point completely. The storage method does not matter in the least. In fact you can store 2 coins in the exact same place, send them both in for grading, have one grade after being deemed market acceptable and the storage method would be proper whilst the other coin is not graded for questionable color thereby making the storage method improper.

 

If you want risk having your coins details graded for improper storage, then by all means, leave them unprotected in a hot humid environment near a sulfur laden source. You could get lucky and end up with a monster rainbow toned market acceptable coin, or you could get unlucky and end up with a details graded coin with questionable color.

 

No grader ever will know how your coins have been stored. He will judge the coin on its merits. His opinion of the originality of the toning will be be based on past experience, the fundamentals of the science of toning, and the overall look of the coin in hand. But in the end, his opinion will be a best guess. Some coins are undoubtedly AT, others are undeniably NT, and a large number of coins swim the channel in between. Those in the middle are essentially a guess as to the originality of the toning. You are free to dislike or disagree with the method for grading toned coins and if it does not conform to your "right or wrong" view of the world you can let it you off. But don't hold it against me or the other toning experts because we are more tolerant and liberal in our acceptance of an area of grading that is not black & white.

 

But while we are on the subject of grey areas in grading, here is another one for you. I believe that a coin can be submitted twice, get two different grades, and be PROPERLY graded both times. I know, I just blew your mind. Before you blast back, think about it for a while.

[Buffalo Head]

The way I look at these issues is that I find that coin pretty ugly (no offense intended) so I don't really care whether it's AT or MA. I call it BU for Butt Ugly.

 

If someone tried to tone that "on purpose" they did a bad job...whoever they are they need a new profession.

 

jom

 

I'm inclined to go along with Jom's assessment and the definition of BU....