Is This Insane Or Am I An insufficiently_thoughtful_person ?

[GoldFinger1969]

Or maybe both....

 

Seriously, I know that the 1995-W Eagle had super-low mintage and was part of the gold set that few bought so it's got true scarcity value.

 

But are these really special ? They aren't even guaranteed to be 1st or early coin mintages, but MIGHT be:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-American-Silver-Eagle-NGC-MS70-ER-MINT-SEALED-BOX-1-VERY-RARE-Lot28-/400495961292?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item5d3f6b64cc

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-American-Silver-Eagle-NGC-MS70-Key-Date-Lot-351-/400495965249?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item5d3f6b7441

 

Edit: The headline got changed as I wanted to refer to myself using the "I" word.

[wdrob]

 

It looks like they don't have any 'milk spotting' so hell, that is worth $5k alone.

 

It is to me also.

 

 

 

 

[brg5658]

Firstly, I don't think it will ever sell for the $12,730 asking price.

 

Secondly, apparently this seller really thinks the little piece of text on the label that says "FROM MINT SEALED BOX #1" is worth ~$12,630.

 

If I collected these (which I don't) I would opt for the readily available MS70 graded versions for < $100.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

[brg5658]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

 

I agree Mark, but the better question is: Why does NGC do such silly things as label coins with "Box #1"? They know darn well that it doesn't mean anything numismatically. It just gives sellers more to "work" with when crafting a misleading sales pitch.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

 

I agree Mark, but the better question is: Why does NGC do such silly things as label coins with "Box #1"? They know darn well that it doesn't mean anything numismatically. It just gives sellers more to "work" with when crafting a misleading sales pitch.

 

If potential buyers don't care about such labels, they wont sell.

[brg5658]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

 

I agree Mark, but the better question is: Why does NGC do such silly things as label coins with "Box #1"? They know darn well that it doesn't mean anything numismatically. It just gives sellers more to "work" with when crafting a misleading sales pitch.

 

If potential buyers don't care about such labels, they wont sell.

 

If NGC wouldn't "create" such labels, then the problem wouldn't exist. NGC is the official grader for ANA and PNG -- both organizations are supposed to protect the hobby from fraud and shenanigans. NGC isn't helping by creating such labels, IMO.

[GoldFinger1969]

If potential buyers don't care about such labels, they wont sell.

It's not the selling that intrigues me, but the price.

 

I guess what I'm trying to ascertain: is a coin that is produced EVERY YEAR worth such a premium in any 1 year (the 1995-W excepted) relative to others just because it MIGHT be one of the first to come off the presses ? Unless the President of the U.S. personally struck it, that price seems from Pluto if you ask me:

 

Silver = $20/oz.

 

ASE = $23/coin.

 

MS 69 ASE = $40/coin.

 

MS 70 ASE = $70/coin

 

Potential Early/1st Off The Presses ASE: $5,000 - $12,000 ?

 

 

[drwstr123]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

 

I agree Mark, but the better question is: Why does NGC do such silly things as label coins with "Box #1"? They know darn well that it doesn't mean anything numismatically. It just gives sellers more to "work" with when crafting a misleading sales pitch.

 

If potential buyers don't care about such labels, they wont sell.

 

If NGC wouldn't "create" such labels, then the problem wouldn't exist. NGC is the official grader for ANA and PNG -- both organizations are supposed to protect the hobby from fraud and shenanigans. NGC isn't helping by creating such labels, IMO.

...but NGC (and all other TPGs) are in it to make money.You know...put food on the table...pay the rent...and pay their taxes.

[MarkFeld]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

 

I agree Mark, but the better question is: Why does NGC do such silly things as label coins with "Box #1"? They know darn well that it doesn't mean anything numismatically. It just gives sellers more to "work" with when crafting a misleading sales pitch.

 

If potential buyers don't care about such labels, they wont sell.

 

If NGC wouldn't "create" such labels, then the problem wouldn't exist. NGC is the official grader for ANA and PNG -- both organizations are supposed to protect the hobby from fraud and shenanigans. NGC isn't helping by creating such labels, IMO.

 

I'm with you and wish it weren't being done - by any grading company.

 

That said, over the years, I have learned that often, there is considerable demand for labels which would mean absolutely nothing to me. And if a seller is going to (try to) rip someone off, one way or another, he will find a means to do so.

[BillJones]

Seriously, I know that the 1995-W Eagle had super-low mintage and was part of the gold set that few bought so it's got true scarcity value.

 

Let's put some things into perspective. First of all there is nothing "rare" about the 1995-W American Silver Eagle (ASE). The mintage was 30,125 with a virtual 100% survival rate. The piece is in demand however because there are so many ASE collectors who want to keep their sets complete. Therefore prices for this piece have been high for quite a while. I believe, however, that the price has been declining in recent years.

 

Second, let us all say "hats off" to our hosts. If you said negative things about the labels that come from ATS, you'd be banned in short order. I too wish that the grading services could avoid making a collectable out of a label that does not mean very much, but that is how the capitalist system works. If you helps to sell more units, and it does not compromise your integrity, go for it. Leave to informed consumers to tell when a label means something and when it's just fluff.

 

[jpcienkus]

But, but, it's the 11th coin graded MS70 out of the 1st monster box from the mint!!!! (dripping with sarcasm).

 

I saw something similar being offered from last years ASE bullion coin production. Art and Coin had somehow gotten the first 20 monster boxes. They sent them to NGC and were selling MS70's and 69's out of them. The premiums were huge. People were buying them too. They included a certified letter from NGC confirming the box numbers. So you could buy the 1st MS70 from the first box, the first MS70 coin from the second box, etc...until you had all 20.

 

I like the ASE's and do collect them, but I don't have the urge to spend $12,728.68 on one because of the label. These aren't even conditional rarities! The sellers/marketers have successfully figured out how to market a label.

[mailman1959]

But, was it the first label printed? MAILMAN

[coinman1794]

Get over it and make things easier on yourself.

 

Sellers should be and are free to ask whatver they want. If the price is not to your liking, move on.

 

I agree Mark, but the better question is: Why does NGC do such silly things as label coins with "Box #1"? They know darn well that it doesn't mean anything numismatically. It just gives sellers more to "work" with when crafting a misleading sales pitch.

 

If potential buyers don't care about such labels, they wont sell.

 

If NGC wouldn't "create" such labels, then the problem wouldn't exist. NGC is the official grader for ANA and PNG -- both organizations are supposed to protect the hobby from fraud and shenanigans. NGC isn't helping by creating such labels, IMO.

 

The problem is only a problem if there isn't a buyer out there who wants it, that is sort of what Mark was getting at.

[GoldFinger1969]

That said, over the years, I have learned that often, there is considerable demand for labels which would mean absolutely nothing to me. And if a seller is going to (try to) rip someone off, one way or another, he will find a means to do so.

 

I don't have a problem with grading new coins, though I think it could lead to a Balkanization of the industry. It could also siphon off $$$ and reduce demand for new coins, let alone older coins which have true numismatic value. Like what happened with baseball card collecting when the $$$ spent on new cards went up 10-fold and there were too many card sets to collect and it killed that market and the oldies market.

 

It's one thing to grade new AGE's or ASE's as MS 69 or 70 (or 68), even if all uncirculated coins are that condition without TPG certification. But the continued differentiation threatens to overwhelm the collectors, esp. the newer ones (like me), the uninformed (who are told that you'll make more with an MS70 ro MS 69 silver than a regular ASE), or the ones with limited $$$. Or all 3 of them.

 

I don't think it's a question of 'ripping people off.' I think it's a question of present market conditions may not persist in the future -- like buying junky internet stocks in late-1999.

 

The folks who bought tons of new issue baseball cards got decimated when the market collapsed. But those who at least bought stuff they liked and/or quality older stuff survived.

 

With coins, diversification -- bullion and quality numismatics -- are important offsets to putting too much money into new stuff, quirky colored coins, commemoratives, proof sets, etc.

 

Like the old Syms Clothing commercials that ran in the NY-NJ area some 30 years ago....an educated consumer is our best customer !!

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

The problem is only a problem if there isn't a buyer out there who wants it, that is sort of what Mark was getting at.

 

Right, but once the novelty wears off, what's the demand ?

 

In 2030, when you are seeing the 46th year of Silver Eagles being slabbed, what will happen to the premium for the 2014's -- that's the $64,000 question (OK, the $70 question ).

 

Now....I like buying these for presents and occasionally for myself. I have no problem with PCGS or NGC doing the grading (I thought they both got hosed on that "First Strike" lawsuit, but that's for another thread). I'm glad PCGS verified/'graded' my SS Central America Restrike coin.

 

I know my downside with a Saint Gauden: bullion value. So buying common MS 65's at about a 50% premium to bullion gives me a floor. If bullion falls too in the future and the premium doesn't expand, the floor goes lower. I get it.

 

But with the ASE's being graded -- or those hyper-marketed Ebay offerings -- the premiums involved are so big you better not be shocked if the price of silver TRIPLES and you barely break even. Not saying it is going to happen, but it could.

 

Now...knowing that, I think I'm OK as I only put small $$$ into these things (the presents for family members aside). My concern is only with newbies who really believe putting all their eggs into one premium basket is a good coin collecting philosophy -- like folks who think that playing Lotto is a good retirement savings strategy.

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's another one:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-1-1-oz-silver-American-eagle-ngc-ms70-pop-of-only-175-coins-/171225653377?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item27ddd82081

 

There aren't that many MS70's back in 1990 because back then nobody got new coins graded, right ?

 

I see plenty of MS 69's for sale from $80 - $150. Can't believe the 70's are worth 30-50x as much.

 

 

[Conder101]

Question, I'm not familiar enough with the monster boxes. I know they have a packing date slip in them, but are the boxes actually numbered by the mint? This label could be as meaningless as "we sent them 20 boxes and had NGC note on the label from the first box they opened, the second box etc."

[jpcienkus]

Question, I'm not familiar enough with the monster boxes. I know they have a packing date slip in them, but are the boxes actually numbered by the mint? This label could be as meaningless as "we sent them 20 boxes and had NGC note on the label from the first box they opened, the second box etc."

 

Conder101,

 

I don't know how Art and Coin TV determined they had the first 20 monster boxes to leave the mint, but NGC agree with them and actually sent them a letter confirming it.

 

NGC put together a special label that said "From box #1, all the way through box #20.

[GoldFinger1969]

Question, I'm not familiar enough with the monster boxes. I know they have a packing date slip in them, but are the boxes actually numbered by the mint? This label could be as meaningless as "we sent them 20 boxes and had NGC note on the label from the first box they opened, the second box etc."

Conder101,I don't know how Art and Coin TV determined they had the first 20 monster boxes to leave the mint, but NGC agree with them and actually sent them a letter confirming it.NGC put together a special label that said "From box #1, all the way through box #20.

 

If the Mint doesn't cooperate in tracking/ID'ing that stuff, maybe they have a guy outside the Mint with binoculars tracking the shipments.

[jpcienkus]

Question, I'm not familiar enough with the monster boxes. I know they have a packing date slip in them, but are the boxes actually numbered by the mint? This label could be as meaningless as "we sent them 20 boxes and had NGC note on the label from the first box they opened, the second box etc."

Conder101,I don't know how Art and Coin TV determined they had the first 20 monster boxes to leave the mint, but NGC agree with them and actually sent them a letter confirming it.NGC put together a special label that said "From box #1, all the way through box #20.

 

If the Mint doesn't cooperate in tracking/ID'ing that stuff, maybe they have a guy outside the Mint with binoculars tracking the shipments.

 

Too funny.

 

The ASE labels have become such a registry game and like you stated earlier, I'm wondering when/if the bottom drops out. By the end of last year, dealers were selling 2013 MS70's (bullion version) for ~$50. At the beginning of the year, they were $75-$90 depending on the source. Some, not all, are trying to use the labels to add some kind of provenance to the coin and justify the prices.

[Conder101]

I don't know how Art and Coin TV determined they had the first 20 monster boxes to leave the mint, but NGC agree with them and actually sent them a letter confirming it.

 

NGC put together a special label that said "From box #1, all the way through box #20.

But is that Box #1 through Box #20 from the Mint or Box #1 through Box #20 from Art and Coin?

 

They say they come with COA's, Who printed those COA's? The Mint didn't, and I doubt NGC did. They don't SAY in the ad that the COA came from NGC, and after reading it a couple more times I don't see were they say they have a letter from NGC confirming that they are from the first 20 boxes sent out by the mint.or in fact anything about a letter from NGC. So is it a COA printed by the same people who are hyping the coin? And they don't show the COA so we don't even know what it says or how it is worded.

[jpcienkus]

I don't know how Art and Coin TV determined they had the first 20 monster boxes to leave the mint, but NGC agree with them and actually sent them a letter confirming it.

 

NGC put together a special label that said "From box #1, all the way through box #20.

But is that Box #1 through Box #20 from the Mint or Box #1 through Box #20 from Art and Coin?

 

They say they come with COA's, Who printed those COA's? The Mint didn't, and I doubt NGC did. They don't SAY in the ad that the COA came from NGC, and after reading it a couple more times I don't see were they say they have a letter from NGC confirming that they are from the first 20 boxes sent out by the mint.or in fact anything about a letter from NGC. So is it a COA printed by the same people who are hyping the coin? And they don't show the COA so we don't even know what it says or how it is worded.

 

Sorry, I'm confusing the issue here. The coin in the OP is not the coins I was referencing. I was referring to a similar marketing tactic used by Art and Coin TV after the release of the 2013 bullion ASE.

 

The COA was in the form of a letter written by NGC confirming the coins being marketed by Art and Coin TV were indeed from the first 20 monster boxes released by the mint. I don't know anymore about the particulars, just what A & C claimed. They claimed they called all 13 master bullion dealers looking for those first 20 monster boxes. They found them, NGC confirmed it with a letter, and the rest as they say is history.

 

The OP's coin is from a previous year.

[jpcienkus]

Conder,

 

Found one on eBay.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-W-American-Silver-Eagle-NGC-MS70-MINT-SEALED-BOX-1-V-RARE-1st-RELEASES-/201027891849?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item2ece323289

 

 

[L1ncolnF4n]

Here's another one:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-1-1-oz-silver-American-eagle-ngc-ms70-pop-of-only-175-coins-/171225653377?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item27ddd82081

 

There aren't that many MS70's back in 1990 because back then nobody got new coins graded, right ?

 

I see plenty of MS 69's for sale from $80 - $150. Can't believe the 70's are worth 30-50x as much.

 

 

Auction comps say otherwise. Those early dates in 70 are conditionally rare.

[GoldFinger1969]

Speaking Of What Appears To Be Weird Pricing.....

 

http://www.moderncoinmart.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1

 

Is there a reason why the regular MS70 for this silver commemorative coin costs 2x what the Ultra Cameo MS70 does ?

 

I thought Cameo commands the premium, here regular silver MS70 seems to be more valued.

[jpcienkus]

Speaking Of What Appears To Be Weird Pricing.....

 

http://www.moderncoinmart.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1

 

Is there a reason why the regular MS70 for this silver commemorative coin costs 2x what the Ultra Cameo MS70 does ?

 

I thought Cameo commands the premium, here regular silver MS70 seems to be more valued.

 

Not sure what you are asking. Ultra Cameo is for a proof coin. These are business strikes.

[GoldFinger1969]

Not sure what you are asking. Ultra Cameo is for a proof coin. These are business strikes.

 

The regular uncirculated is the business strike and goes for just under $200....the UC is the proof and goes for less than half that.

 

Shouldn't a proof cost more than a regular strike ?

[MarkFeld]

Not sure what you are asking. Ultra Cameo is for a proof coin. These are business strikes.

 

The regular uncirculated is the business strike and goes for just under $200....the UC is the proof and goes for less than half that.

 

Shouldn't a proof cost more than a regular strike ?

 

Not necessarily. In many cases, Proofs tend to grade higher than business strikes, so the latter can be rarer in very high grades. And you are comparing apples to oranges.

[jpcienkus]

Not sure what you are asking. Ultra Cameo is for a proof coin. These are business strikes.

 

The regular uncirculated is the business strike and goes for just under $200....the UC is the proof and goes for less than half that.

 

Shouldn't a proof cost more than a regular strike ?

 

I hit the link again. The first two bullion coins are PF70 and PF69, they are from Great Britain. All the rest of the coins on that page are American Silver Eagle uncirculated bullion strikes.

 

If you look at the pricing on the page, the proofs are more expensive; however, these are two different coins, so the comparison is not valid.

 

In general, yes, the proof bullion coins are more expensive than the uncirculated coins.