MS Grading: How Many "Dings" Allowed ?

[GoldFinger1969]

Recntly, many of you offered your thoughts and comments -- generally favorable -- regarding my 1st Saint Gaudens purchase, a 1924 MS 65. Nothing special, but I wanted to Keep It Simple Stupid with my 1st 'big' expensive purchase.

 

Here's the rub: Looking at the coin closer, and under about 4-5x magnification (one of those 20x Loupes that I think overestimates the power by squaring it), I see what would appear to me to be many marks that would disqualify it from an MS 65 rating. For that matter, I see the same thing in many of the coin show coins I saw this past weekend and at local dealers.

 

What am I missing -- or what am I seeing that I shouldn't be overweighting ?

 

For instance, MarkFeld graciously commented:

 

Congratulations and enjoy your coin. You said "...wear appears minimal..". A truly mint state coin will not exhibit wear and I doubt that yours does. There is a difference between wear and areas that are not fully struck up and/or are discolored for various reasons.

 

But I do see wear: I see some scuff-marks in the 9 o'clock area basin and also under Liberty's left arm holding the olive branch (click on the pictures above to see what I am talking about). I can also see 2 deeper 'cuts across into Liberty's left arm; if she were real, they'd be pretty serious laceration wounds. The 3rd and 4th rays on the left side (from Liberty's waist) have a flattened squeeze-mark about 75-80% of the way up the ray.

 

The reverse appears better than the obverse, but I am wondering: should this coin have been rated MS 65 ?

 

Now, don't get me wrong: I see lots of other coins online, Ebay, and from various dealers that are similarly rated and don't look as good. And I see other coins lower-rated that clearly have more imperfections. I guess what I'm asking is: how many imperfections are allowed to keep a mid-60's MS rating....and how many before a low-60's MS rating would fall to the AU category ?

 

Today I looked at some St. Gaudens coins. I saw some rated MS 62 that had dings and little cuts/grooves in the rim on 1 side of the coin. OK, it was an MS 62 and not MS 65 but how do I know that the coin wasn't an MS 62 based on a quick glance of the obverse and reverse and they maybe missed the nicks on the rim ?

 

It's a 3-person grading system, right, but how much time per coin do these guys spend looking at one ? Do they use magnification ? Are we talking the middle-aged experts we see on the webpages or maybe a couple of 20-something kids just out of college who have been into coins since they were 6 years old ??

 

I can live with overpaying for my early coin purchases, but I really want to know what might cause me to question the grading of a TPG when or if I start to really buy what would be for me an expensive outlay for a coin.

_________________________

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

Instead of driving yourself crazy, I suggest you become more familiar with how PCGS grades coins.

 

I really, really, really urge you to get a copy of PCGS' "Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection".

 

The first edition is the best - larger size and good images on glossy paper, but the second edition should be of use to you as well.

 

There are five factors that lead to a coin's grade: Wear, Marks, Strike, Luster and Eye Appeal.

 

To grade a coin you need to have it in your hand and rotate it under a light source. You also need to know what the various grades of that date and mintmark should look like.

 

A coin's grade is determined by the mix of the five grading factors.

 

edited to add: Please note, "scuff marks" are not necessarily signs of wear. Also, no one can grade a coin from an image with any accuracy because (just like with movie stars), a photographer can work magic (good or bad) with lighting and camera angle.

 

further edited to add: It's a 3-person grading system, right, but how much time per coin do these guys spend looking at one? The really expert grader I know spends about 5 seconds on grading a coin. Do they use magnification? This particular grader uses his bare eyes and confirms his opinion with a 5x glass. Are we talking the middle-aged experts we see on the webpages or maybe a couple of 20-something kids just out of college who have been into coins since they were 6 years old?? The guy I know is one of those middle-aged expert types. I expect he's graded hundreds of thousands of coins or more in his probably 40 years in the business. I've also heard of some young guys who are reported to be really good graders.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger1969, Instead of driving yourself crazy, I suggest you become more familiar with how PCGS grades coins. I really, really, really urge you to get a copy of PCGS' "Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection".

 

Got the book, Dave....will be reading it very shortly. Working on the other book primers first.

 

The first edition is the best - larger size and good images on glossy paper, but the second edition should be of use to you as well.There are five factors that lead to a coin's grade: Wear, Marks, Strike, Luster and Eye Appeal.To grade a coin you need to have it in your hand and rotate it under a light source. You also need to know what the various grades of that date and mintmark should look like.A coin's grade is determined by the mix of the five grading factors.

 

Thanks Dave....it appears that older coins are somewhat 'graded on a curve' as opposed to brand new coins minted the last few years. I'll try and get a more nuanced feel for the grading process.

 

It certainly is one of the reasons I am sticking to TPG coins....I saw some nice coins in white square pouches and I would say I was off by 3-5 points on some of them, maybe even more (I tried not to look at the rating if it had one).

[DaveG]

If you're going to be spending significant money on coins, I'd strongly recommend you read the grading guide before you buy any more coins.

 

Also, please note my additionally edited comments above.

[dimefreak]

Put down the 20x loupe

[GoldFinger1969]

If you're going to be spending significant money on coins, I'd strongly recommend you read the grading guide before you buy any more coins. Also, please note my additionally edited comments above.

 

I intend to, thanks Dave....was looking intensely today, hope to buy again in a few weeks or months.

[FishyOne]

Put down the 20x loupe

 

Agreed. Coins the size of $20 Saints can be (and often are) graded without any magnification. A 3X loupe that allows you to view the entire surface is the max needed. 5X is too much for this size coin IMO. Numerous small contact marks are allowable on 65s.

[dimefreak]

Mark Feld worked for NGC and I once ask him about using a loupe while grading. IIRC he told me he only used a loupe to take a better look at something that didn't look right... other than that they use regular magnify glasses that allow the whole coin to be seen.

[DaveG]

Just to add some "clarity," here's what PCGS says about "Eye Appeal" for an MS-65 coin:

 

 

The eye appeal will be average or above. This is a very nice coin. However, there are many ways a coin can grade MS-65. This grade may have the largest range of eye appeal. A coin may grade MS-65 with scattered light marks, but with great luster or strike - or a coin with virtually no marks but with a slightly impeded luster also could be MS-65. The overall eye appeal still must be positive or the coin does not merit MS-65.

 

 

Personally, I think someone needs a certain amount of experience to interpret that paragraph properly.

[GoldFinger1969]

Mark Feld worked for NGC and I once ask him about using a loupe while grading. IIRC he told me he only used a loupe to take a better look at something that didn't look right... other than that they use regular magnify glasses that allow the whole coin to be seen.

 

That's good to know...I saw a dealer's magnifying glass today -- black handle with big lens -- and the whole coin was visible. I think he said it was 7x power. No LED lights.

 

I may get a B&L 7x glass or something that shows the entire coin. What I have now is either too powerful and/or too small glass-wise: I can see about 1/3rd - 1/2 the coin if I am rock-steady.

[e1cnr]

numerous nicks does not equal circulation wear

 

it has great eye appeal and luster

 

if the nicks you are mentioning were not there it would have been a 66 or 67 and it would have cost you even more

[GoldFinger1969]

Just to add some "clarity," here's what PCGS says about "Eye Appeal" for an MS-65 coin: The eye appeal will be average or above. This is a very nice coin. However, there are many ways a coin can grade MS-65. This grade may have the largest range of eye appeal. A coin may grade MS-65 with scattered light marks, but with great luster or strike - or a coin with virtually no marks but with a slightly impeded luster also could be MS-65. The overall eye appeal still must be positive or the coin does not merit MS-65.Personally, I think someone needs a certain amount of experience to interpret that paragraph properly.

 

I think you're right Dave...I think what is confusing is that maybe the top-end MS grades (MS 68-70) I am seeing on newly-minted coins are such that if you then grade DOWN from them to older coins in the mid-60's it looks like you're over-grading.

 

I have a brand new silver coin given as a gift...it's rated MS 68....I can't see anything wrong with it at all....I look at the rating criteria for an MS 68...then I look at my MS 64/65 coin(s) and read what the ratings should be for coins like that and I think they have too many marks/imperfections/dings/whatever.

 

I wasn't doubting PCGS or the TPGs, but rather wondering if I was reading the rating criteria too literally. Or maybe I mixed-and-matched appearance/ratings on newly-minted coins to my older Morgans and St. Gaudens.

 

Thanks again for the feedback, I learn alot from your posts.

[GoldFinger1969]

numerous nicks does not equal circulation wear it has great eye appeal and luster if the nicks you are mentioning were not there it would have been a 66 or 67 and it would have cost you even more

 

Good to know, thanks E1 !! (thumbs u

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

Most of the Pro graders I know use a B&L 5x Packette - which is really cheap in case you tend to lose magnifying glasses. (I've had mine for about 20 years.)

 

Jon Lerner of Scarsdale Coins (who did or does set up at the Westchester Shows), on the other hand, prefers the fancy, expensive German magnifying glasses, which he wears on lanyards around his neck so he doesn't lose them.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

Gold coins and silver coins are graded by different criteria because gold is a softer metal and picks up contact marks more easily.

 

Also, I think modern coins may be graded by different criteria than coins made 60 or 100 years ago.

 

Finally, some modern coins are not dropped into a hopper full of coins after they are minted, but are instead taken by hand out of the coin press. As a result, these coins don't (or shouldn't) have any contact marks at all and are graded by different criteria than are the coins that are dropped into a hopper and have other coins dropped on top of them.

 

Such special handling is also a factor in the grading of older Proof coins, too. On the other hand, collectors in the 19th century tended to wipe their Proof coins, so grading 19th century Proof coins takes into account the amount of hairlines that are present.

[GoldFinger1969]

Put down the 20x loupe

 

Agreed. Coins the size of $20 Saints can be (and often are) graded without any magnification. A 3X loupe that allows you to view the entire surface is the max needed. 5X is too much for this size coin IMO. Numerous small contact marks are allowable on 65s.

 

Gotcha...the power on this LED loupe is 4-5x....the 20x thing overstates it by squaring the magnification or something. A marketing problem on lots of Amazon.com glass products sold apparently.

[Raisethis2]

 

 

With a 20X loupe even Kate Upton would look scruffy. Ms. Liberty therefore would have no shot!!

 

Always, the first thing you must do is examine both sides of the coin with no magnification.

 

1. If it has no eye appeal, that will be obvious.

2. If there's an issue with the luster,(cartwheel) that also will be obvious.

3. If there's any doubt, put the coin down NOW and begin saving money.

[Kurtdog]

With a 20X loupe even Kate Upton would look scruffy.

Not if she was wearing Cindy Crawford's Meaningful Beauty. According to Cindy Crawford's melon farmer expert, it's made from a special melon in France.

[AcesKings]

Maybe these will help you answer some of your own questions......

 

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

The really expert grader I know spends about 5 seconds on grading a coin.

Wow !!! Are you kidding me ? That's hard to believe, 5 seconds. Never would have guessed anything less than a minute or so for an older coin.

 

How can you go through that littany of counterfeit checks on a coin in anything close to that time frame ? I know these guys are good at what they do but I would think if they get a 1907 High Relief Saint they will spend MUCH MORE TIME than on a brand new 2014 American Eagle Silver, no ?

 

I would have guessed it would take each person 1-2 minutes to look at an older coin but maybe I'm just naive.

 

You read that Counterfeit Detection you recommended and there's so much stuff to go over for each coin it seems like you'd need a checklist in front of you to remember to hit each and every one.

 

If anybody has a post or article by an actual PCGS/NCG grader telling about a typical day, I'd love to read it.

[GoldFinger1969]

Maybe these will help you answer some of your own questions......

 

 

 

 

Outstanding, thanks !

 

Will check them out today during halftime of the games and aftewards.

[dimefreak]

A 1907 HR would certainly garner more time than 5 seconds. But typically if you have seen enough coins you will have a good sense of its authenticity within the first 2 seconds of holding it. Another thing that might be helpful for you is that you really shouldn't wear gloves. Gloves reduce or ability to securely hold a coin. Learn how to hold a coin properly by its edge. My 7 year old can do it so I know any adult here can learn. Touching the obverse or reverse of a collectible coin might be my biggest pet peeve....

[jom]

In addition to reading the grading guide before you buy anymore coins...I think it is MORE important to sit down at an auction viewing or go to a coin show and LOOK at a LOT of coins. To help answer your specific question go to the lot viewing and LOOK at ALL of the Saints and try to grade each yourself then note what the TPG gave it.

 

Do this as many times as you can before you spend anymore dough....

 

jom

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

Perhaps I overestimated a bit, perhaps he actually spends up to 10 seconds on each coin.

 

When I first met this gentleman about 10 years ago, he had already been a top grader for many years. As I said, he's probably graded hundreds of thousands of coins, perhaps even a million coins.

 

I have watched him examine coins - he gets more from a coin in 5 or 10 seconds than I can get from a coin in a minute or two.

 

He can also spend 10 minutes discussing what he's looking for, and looking at, in that 5 second examination.

 

(In my opinion, if you can't describe what you're doing as you're examining a coin, then you're just wasting your time by looking.)

 

I am totally convinced that no collector can approach what guys like him can do. They simply don't have the training and experience to compete and, unless the collector is on the national coin show circuit and examines lots of auction lots, they also have no idea of the size of the universe that they're competing in.

 

(It's sort-of like a kid who is a varsity athlete in a small-town high school, but who has no idea that big-time college sports exists. That kid doesn't even have a clue that he doesn't have a clue!)

 

A number of years ago, he told me a story that, when he was a young man at one of the TPG's, he was assigned to go through a bag (yes, that's right - 1,000 coins!) of Ike dollars and pick out those higher than MS-65 (or MS-63 or whatever the grade limit was). He had a time limit to compete his assignment, of course.

 

I told him that if I had had to grade a bag of Ikes, I'd still be traumatized, too!

 

Finally, he'd probably spend about the same amount of time (or even less) grading a high-relief Saint versus an ASE. Partially because he's already graded enough high-relief Saints to have a good idea within two seconds whether he's looking at a counterfeit and partially because the ASE is more likely to be a high-quality counterfeit.

 

 

[BillJones]

Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics brought up the issue of grading St. Gaudens $20 gold coins ATS more than a year ago. It probably was one of the posts that got her in trouble over there. Her point was that there are more than a certified few St. Gaudens $20 gold coins that are graded too liberally. I would add to that the 1926 and 1932 $10 Indian gold coins. I've seen a lot of those that were over graded too.

 

Believe or not as a type coin the St. Gaudens $20 gold piece is fairly common. For that reason both of the leading grading services offered bulk grading rates. One poster here claimed that an experienced grader can grade one of these coins in five seconds. Such a cursory review might be what the powers at be require of those who do the bulk grading.

 

I don't care how good you are or think you are, that is not enough time spot EVERYTHING that might be wrong with a coin. In that short period of time it's just too easy to miss something, especially when you are getting toward the end of the day and your eyes are tied.

 

As for grading of these coins when they get right, I'll point out an example from my collection. This 1907 low relief St. Gaudens $20 is graded MS-65, and I agree with the grade. The piece has strong luster and good appear, but it is far from perfect.

 

 

On the reverse there is a fairly large mark on the eagle's wing which is highlighted by an arrow. This mark is not very noticeable. It is in an area when it is partially hidden by the eagle's feathers, and it is not on the reverse or in an immediate focal point. For that reason I don't think that it takes the coin out of the MS-65 grade, but others might disagree.

 

[DaveG]

BillJones raises a good point, which speaks to why the TPGs have three graders examine each coin and why over-grades and under-grades (and grade reviews) exist and why the "crack-out" guys can make good money re-submitting coins.

 

However, I'm also sure that BillJones (after his decades as a dealer) will confirm that pro dealers do not spend 10 - 20 minutes examining each box of 20 coins that they are considering buying at a large coin show. If they did, they'd never get through the day.

 

I have certainly stood near this gentleman of whom I am speaking when he has been asked by a fellow dealer "What do you think of this coin?" and when he has reviewed boxes of coins to buy and I have actually counted in my head ("one one thousand, two one thousand", etc.) and the time he spends on each coin is much closer to 5 - 10 seconds than it is 1 - 2 minutes. And, I don't think anyone would call this gentleman's examination "cursory."

[GoldFinger1969]

Bill, that is an outstanding coin and most impressive.

 

I have to disagree with you though: to me, that mark on the Eagle's wing is NOT a big mark, even under the high magnification and with your arrow there I have to look closely to see it. I don't think I would have found it unless I was told and/or a picture had that arrow you included. And I can't tell if it's a raised or hallowed-out mark on the wing it's tough to tell even under the magnified picture.

 

Granted, I have much less experience than you at this but to me unless I am going over it with a loupe or glass I think I am going to need to see something 2-3 mm before it stands out as something material as opposed to the 'normal' dings/marks that the guys stated above are acceptable. The cut at the top of the torch is more noticeable to me and in a more prominent place (judging from all the MS65 Saints I have seen in recent weeks -- alot -- I definitely feel yours is one of the best in that group).

 

I'm guestimating but since the coin is 34 mm in diameter that mark on the eagle looks to be under 1 mm.

[BillJones]

However, I'm also sure that BillJones (after his decades as a dealer) will confirm that pro dealers do not spend 10 - 20 minutes examining each box of 20 coins that they are considering buying at a large coin show. If they did, they'd never get through the day.

 

By in large I could zip through a box of coins pretty fast. There are many pieces that I rejected because (1) I did not care for the coin either because I didn't like it period or didn't like it for the grade assigned OR (2) I had no resale market for it. When I picked out the coins that did interest me, I spent a good deal more time with them.

 

I'll stand by my statement that a third party grader who spends no more than five seconds on a coin is doing lousy job. It is simply humanly impossible to do otherwise.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger1969,

 

I have found, in my time as a collector, that I have an easier time being objective about a coin that I don't own; such coins are much easier to grade.

 

On the other hand, I have been much fussier when choosing a coin to buy. A mark that 9 out of 10 other people will dismiss can assume huge importance and even, overwhelm an otherwise nice coin.

 

I have seen it happen where choosing a coin to buy comes down to a question of: "Do you prefer a coin with a mark on the obverse or a mark on the reverse? Do you prefer a coin with a small mark in a prime focal area or a big mark in a non-prime area."

 

BillJones, from the coins he has posted here over the years, is a very fussy and patient buyer of outstanding coins.

 

Being a very fussy buyer is a very rare attribute - it takes a lot of willpower.

[DaveG]

I'll stand by my statement that a third party grader who spends no more than five seconds on a coin is doing lousy job.

 

Depending on your definition of a "lousy job", I would probably agree with you.

 

 

(Not that anyone who posted to this thread made such a statement (that is, "spend no more than five seconds on a coin") prior to you making it just now. I suppose you think you read it or meant to type it, but I just read through the posts again and no such assertion is present.)