Are Sellers Being Realistic In Pricing ?

[GoldFinger1969]

Well, I have seen it with stocks, bonds, and real estate and other collectibles so I'm now seeing it on coins that I have interest in: unrealistic selling prices.

 

I have made offers on a bunch of coins from folks who counter with an outright decline or come down by 5%, tops. Just contacted someone on Ebay who was asking about $2,900 for a Saint Gaudens....OK, I bid way underneath it and did not expect him to come near my price. But he countered with a $50 cut. Have seen the same thing on other expensive gold coins but also on silver coins that are a few hundred dollars. Granted, there's less room to cut there but I'm seeing the same resistance and either outright declining of my offer or just a token cut.

 

I'm not saying split the difference even, I'm saying make a realistic offer. I think the prices I am seeing are based on early-2013 bullion pricing, or maybe at best the Summer-2013 bullion prices (about $1,350 gold/$24 silver).

 

Are you folks seeing prices 'sticky' for folks who want to price their numismatics as if gold was at $1,600 and silver at $30 ?

 

Thoughts ? Are any of you seeing this or am I maybe just extrapolating from a few guys who will only sell to a desperate buyer or someone who meets their price ?

[MarkFeld]

That is nothing the least bit new or different.

 

I have been a rare coin dealer since 1979, and have found that there are - and I don't like to use words like "never" or "always", but - always some sellers who tend to be realistic and others, who are not.

 

I have also seen that over time, and regardless of market conditions (poor, fair, good or great), some sellers are almost always reasonable, while others are almost always out to lunch. In other words, the same sellers who were too high 20 years ago, are likely too high today. And, rather than beat my head against the wall trying to deal with them, I just walk on by.

[GoldFinger1969]

That is nothing the least bit new or different. I have been a rare coin dealer since 1979, and have found that there are - and I don't like to use words like "never" or "always", but - always some sellers who tend to be realistic and others, who are not. I have also seen that over time, and regardless of market conditions (poor, fair, good or great), some sellers are almost always reasonable, while others are almost always out to lunch. In other words, the same sellers who were too high 20 years ago, are likely too high today. And, rather than beat my head against the wall trying to deal with them, I just walk on by.

 

Sage advice, Mark, not much more I can add.

 

My quriosity was that some of these sellers are listing on online sites -- like Ebay -- where they have to know there are other similarly-rated coins that are selling 10-30% cheaper. Surely, you would think you aren't going to be able to sell an almost-identical coin for 20% more, right ?

 

I know it doesn't cost anything and the seller might get lucky, but I would think most people spending thousands of dollars tend to be savvy buyers (unless they're one of those Nouveau Rich price-insensitive buyers I discussed in another thread ).

 

I know people paying a 10-20% premium for stuff costing under $100 but that's usually for stuff they need/want right away (Bday or Christmas presents, etc.).

 

Anyway, it will be interesting to see pricing going forward if gold/silver do not bounce here or if they continue to trend lower. I used to cover the banking sector pretty closely and many banks are just now starting to open up to selling, after refusing to sell the last few years because they had visions of the prices paid during 2005-7. My experience is it takes 3 years or more before 'sellers get religion' on pricing when they see a price spike in the rear-view mirror.

 

[comicdonna]

That is nothing the least bit new or different.

 

I have been a rare coin dealer since 1979, and have found that there are - and I don't like to use words like "never" or "always", but - always some sellers who tend to be realistic and others, who are not.

 

I have also seen that over time, and regardless of market conditions (poor, fair, good or great), some sellers are almost always reasonable, while others are almost always out to lunch. In other words, the same sellers who were too high 20 years ago, are likely too high today. And, rather than beat my head against the wall trying to deal with them, I just walk on by.

I find that you are as realistic as they come, Mark.

[zboyle04]

well what date, mintmark, grade and grading service was the coin???

[GoldFinger1969]

well what date, mintmark, grade and grading service was the coin???

 

There were a bunch offered....if you goto Ebay and punch up a few dates like 1928, 1924, and 1908 you'll see most of the prices converge but there are a few outliers. Some of the more egregious ones seem to have fallen off in recent days but maybe they'll repost.

 

Generally, when I look to see where the online market is I punch up the year and MS65 or MS63....add in mint strike and it might get too narrow (though I realize that can explain price differentials but I was assuming the mint marks are the same when I price-shop).

[zboyle04]

i understand that, but you gotta be specific, i picked up a 1908 no motto PCGS MS63 for $1620, there was one MS63 listed for $1590 but it looked ugly in comparison to this one, worth the extra $30. I also some people trying to sell same grade and same date and mintmark for close to $2200, so i know what you mean. but grade is important here, most common ones MS65 will start at $2000 and go up. I am not sure what price guide you use, i like numismedia, but numismedia values tend to be a little higher, PCGS price guide is a little more realistic

[zboyle04]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1908-20-Saint-Guadens-NO-MOTTO-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS63-/111249619816?ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME%3AX%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1123&item=111249619816&nma=true&si=q%252FceuSYT%252BkDdzTf5OhcgaIIaOW0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

this is the link to the one for $1590, attached are the sellers pics of the one for $1620.

 

which one would you rather have? also i think it could or should be an MS64

[ComicConnoisseur]

Well, I have seen it with stocks, bonds, and real estate and other collectibles so I'm now seeing it on coins that I have interest in: unrealistic selling prices.

 

I have made offers on a bunch of coins from folks who counter with an outright decline or come down by 5%, tops. Just contacted someone on Ebay who was asking about $2,900 for a Saint Gaudens....OK, I bid way underneath it and did not expect him to come near my price. But he countered with a $50 cut. Have seen the same thing on other expensive gold coins but also on silver coins that are a few hundred dollars. Granted, there's less room to cut there but I'm seeing the same resistance and either outright declining of my offer or just a token cut.

 

I'm not saying split the difference even, I'm saying make a realistic offer. I think the prices I am seeing are based on early-2013 bullion pricing, or maybe at best the Summer-2013 bullion prices (about $1,350 gold/$24 silver).

 

Are you folks seeing prices 'sticky' for folks who want to price their numismatics as if gold was at $1,600 and silver at $30 ?

 

Thoughts ? Are any of you seeing this or am I maybe just extrapolating from a few guys who will only sell to a desperate buyer or someone who meets their price ?

I think sellers have set high prices because of the EBay and auction fees they must pay.

[GoldFinger1969]

i understand that, but you gotta be specific, i picked up a 1908 no motto PCGS MS63 for $1620, there was one MS63 listed for $1590 but it looked ugly in comparison to this one, worth the extra $30. I also some people trying to sell same grade and same date and mintmark for close to $2200, so i know what you mean. but grade is important here, most common ones MS65 will start at $2000 and go up. I am not sure what price guide you use, i like numismedia, but numismedia values tend to be a little higher, PCGS price guide is a little more realistic

 

Agreed, have only looked at numismedia a few times and glanced at PCGS. I usually just check the auctions online + Ebay + interpolate from Red Book/Blue Book. As I have said, I may not be as fluent in daily pricing as some of you (I still consider myself a novice) but in my months of watching I have seen some curious pricing and outliers.

 

You mentioned the $30 differential for a better-looking coin, and I couldn't agree more. If I really liked one and was agitated about the other I would probably pay a premium of $100-$200 to get the one I really liked, even if they had the same rating. The way I look at it, if I am gonna have the coin for years, I'm not gonna say "should I have...." years down the road. But that would be a purchase with my own eyes from a dealer, with pictures/online it's still tough to tell if it's the actual coin or the photos.

[MarkFeld]

i understand that, but you gotta be specific, i picked up a 1908 no motto PCGS MS63 for $1620, there was one MS63 listed for $1590 but it looked ugly in comparison to this one, worth the extra $30. I also some people trying to sell same grade and same date and mintmark for close to $2200, so i know what you mean. but grade is important here, most common ones MS65 will start at $2000 and go up. I am not sure what price guide you use, i like numismedia, but numismedia values tend to be a little higher, PCGS price guide is a little more realistic

 

Agreed, have only looked at numismedia a few times and glanced at PCGS. I usually just check the auctions online + Ebay + interpolate from Red Book/Blue Book. As I have said, I may not be as fluent in daily pricing as some of you (I still consider myself a novice) but in my months of watching I have seen some curious pricing and outliers.

 

You mentioned the $30 differential for a better-looking coin, and I couldn't agree more. If I really liked one and was agitated about the other I would probably pay a premium of $100-$200 to get the one I really liked, even if they had the same rating. The way I look at it, if I am gonna have the coin for years, I'm not gonna say "should I have...." years down the road. But that would be a purchase with my own eyes from a dealer, with pictures/online it's still tough to tell if it's the actual coin or the photos.

 

You should forget about the Red and Blue book for current valuations/pricing.

[GoldFinger1969]

this is the link to the one for $1590, attached are the sellers pics of the one for $1620. which one would you rather have? also i think it could or should be an MS64

 

I agree with you, though I am out of my element on rating coins, I must admit.

 

But I see what you see on the 2 coins: for sure, the $30 extra was a no-brainer. But I wonder how much of the lower-priced coins appearance is because it was shot through the slab and maybe had a lighting issue ?

 

The coin you bought/posted pics of looks like it came from a book -- super clean image, no lighting issues whatsoever !

[GoldFinger1969]

You should forget about the Red and Blue book for current valuations/pricing.

 

I do, I just use it as a final check for relative pricing sometimes. The books would only be close to market value if the price of gold and the market were the same as when they were printed.

 

Since I have the book(s) and it takes 15 seconds to look, I use it. But I always talk to my friends who have been at it longer than I have...check the auctions...Ebay...local dealers.

 

For me, getting the rock-bottom price isn't the goal. I just want to make sure I am 'in the ballpark' for a coin that I really like. Since I'm not a dealer who has to sell it down the line to make a profit, it's really about enjoying the coin while paying fair market value or close to that.

 

Same thing I used for years when collecting baseball cards, though these are more valuable than most of those cards I bought.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think sellers have set high prices because of the EBay and auction fees they must pay.

Ebay is 3%, right ?

[oih82w8]

For regular Joe's and Jane's, eBay is 10% of the sell price...at least that is what I have been charged, plus PayPal @ 3%.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

For regular Joe's and Jane's, eBay is 10% of the sell price...at least that is what I have been charged, plus PayPal @ 3%.

 

Wow, didn't realize it was that high...sold 1 or 2 things like 10 years ago, I thought I recall the fees were much less. Wasn't an expensive item, like $40 or so, so maybe my recollection is fuzzy.

[jom]

For regular Joe's and Jane's, eBay is 10% of the sell price...at least that is what I have been charged, plus PayPal @ 3%.

 

Wow, didn't realize it was that high...sold 1 or 2 things like 10 years ago, I thought I recall the fees were much less. Wasn't an expensive item, like $40 or so, so maybe my recollection is fuzzy.

 

For people with online "stores" it probably in the 9% range but, yeah, it's about 13% now for Joe Blow. That is the one thing people are getting annoyed about with eBay. Note that PayPal is OWNED by eBay and they pretty much force your buyers to go through PP (mostly).

 

jom

[bsshog40]

For regular Joe's and Jane's, eBay is 10% of the sell price...at least that is what I have been charged, plus PayPal @ 3%.

 

Wow, didn't realize it was that high...sold 1 or 2 things like 10 years ago, I thought I recall the fees were much less. Wasn't an expensive item, like $40 or so, so maybe my recollection is fuzzy.

 

For people with online "stores" it probably in the 9% range but, yeah, it's about 13% now for Joe Blow. That is the one thing people are getting annoyed about with eBay. Note that PayPal is OWNED by eBay and they pretty much force your buyers to go through PP (mostly).

 

jom

Agree! For the normal joe, you can lose a lot of money on auctions after ebay fees, paypal fees and then shipping fees if you try the free shipping option to attract buyers. I don't sell hardly anything on ebay anymore unless it's something that I don't care about how much it goes for. Mostly items of no use to me anymore.

[Coinbuf]

Well, I have seen it with stocks, bonds, and real estate and other collectibles so I'm now seeing it on coins that I have interest in: unrealistic selling prices.

 

I have made offers on a bunch of coins from folks who counter with an outright decline or come down by 5%, tops. Just contacted someone on Ebay who was asking about $2,900 for a Saint Gaudens....OK, I bid way underneath it and did not expect him to come near my price. But he countered with a $50 cut. Have seen the same thing on other expensive gold coins but also on silver coins that are a few hundred dollars. Granted, there's less room to cut there but I'm seeing the same resistance and either outright declining of my offer or just a token cut.

 

I'm not saying split the difference even, I'm saying make a realistic offer. I think the prices I am seeing are based on early-2013 bullion pricing, or maybe at best the Summer-2013 bullion prices (about $1,350 gold/$24 silver).

 

Are you folks seeing prices 'sticky' for folks who want to price their numismatics as if gold was at $1,600 and silver at $30 ?

 

Thoughts ? Are any of you seeing this or am I maybe just extrapolating from a few guys who will only sell to a desperate buyer or someone who meets their price ?

 

No you’re not alone in this, I recently contacted an ebay seller who's asking price was $575 when the avg price for the coin in question is around $275ish and was over $100 higher than the highest paid at any major auction all of last year. Now the coins looked very nice and I was willing to pay slightly over the highest auction result (around $425ish) and offered $475; his reply was a whopping $25 reduction would not budge even after I showed him the numbers. His rational was that he felt that this date was going to take off in price in the future. The coin in question is a 1919 Lincoln in MS65RD, not sure what he was smoking but I very much doubt that the coin will skyrocket in the foreseeable future, and the coin is still for sale last I looked.

[TonerGuy]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for.

 

He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

 

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

[GoldFinger1969]

For people with online "stores" it probably in the 9% range but, yeah, it's about 13% now for Joe Blow. That is the one thing people are getting annoyed about with eBay. Note that PayPal is OWNED by eBay and they pretty much force your buyers to go through PP (mostly).jom

 

Only way to 'get even' is to buy EBAY the stock and make some money on it the next time it's a BUY. PayPal is their crown jewel but the online site is doing better with 70% of all transactions using BUY IT NOW.

 

Those fees ARE high....didn't realize it can run that high (I am aware of the 3% PayPal nick; I'm running a Super Bowl pool and I told people to add 3% if they use PP ). That might account for some of the pricing I see on coins relative to the online coin auctions run by specialty houses.

[GoldFinger1969]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for. He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

Wow....congrats !!!

 

Maybe he needed $$$ and you were the only one to contact him. That sure is a big discount. I think I've had people come off 10-15%, tops.

[GoldFinger1969]

No you’re not alone in this, I recently contacted an ebay seller who's asking price was $575 when the avg price for the coin in question is around $275ish and was over $100 higher than the highest paid at any major auction all of last year. Now the coins looked very nice and I was willing to pay slightly over the highest auction result (around $425ish) and offered $475; his reply was a whopping $25 reduction would not budge even after I showed him the numbers. His rational was that he felt that this date was going to take off in price in the future. The coin in question is a 1919 Lincoln in MS65RD, not sure what he was smoking but I very much doubt that the coin will skyrocket in the foreseeable future, and the coin is still for sale last I looked.

 

Yup, similar to what I have gotten when they bother to respond. About 1/3rd tell me they think they have a winning numismatic that will appreciate regardless of silver/gold....and about 2/3rds tell me they paid a higher price when gold/silver was higher (and maybe a higher premium then, too) and they don't want to get killed loss-wise.

 

I guess now that part of that 'loss' is the Ebay fees I wasn't aware of.

[jpcienkus]

For people with online "stores" it probably in the 9% range but, yeah, it's about 13% now for Joe Blow. That is the one thing people are getting annoyed about with eBay. Note that PayPal is OWNED by eBay and they pretty much force your buyers to go through PP (mostly).jom

 

Only way to 'get even' is to buy EBAY the stock and make some money on it the next time it's a BUY. PayPal is their crown jewel but the online site is doing better with 70% of all transactions using BUY IT NOW.

 

Those fees ARE high....didn't realize it can run that high (I am aware of the 3% PayPal nick; I'm running a Super Bowl pool and I told people to add 3% if they use PP ). That might account for some of the pricing I see on coins relative to the online coin auctions run by specialty houses.

 

I did buy eBay stock for the PayPal aspect. I don't want to hijack the thread and make it about stocks, but PayPal's popularity outside eBay is the main reason I decided to invest.

[jpcienkus]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for.

 

He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

 

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

 

While it would be nice to have something like this, toning "beauty" is so subjective, IMO, it would be near impossible to put a price on the emotion that goes into buying toned coins.

 

After the seller discounted the coins, did you pull the trigger? If yes, congrats on your score.

[Kurtdog]

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

While it would be nice to have something like this, toning "beauty" is so subjective, IMO, it would be near impossible to put a price on the emotion that goes into buying toned coins.

Here’s a question. Does anyone here even know what goes into the price guides? I know what I’d like to think, that’s easy, anyone can know what they’d like to think. I’d like to think the price guides are for strictly untoned coins. Are toned coins included in the price guides? If they’re not so included, somebody is systematically separating them out, then, right? I never heard of that. That’s why I’m inclined to think they’re already included. And that would mean untoned coins should price at somewhere under the price guides.

 

All to say, toned coins are already skewing up the price guides. Aren’t they?

[coinman_23885]

For regular Joe's and Jane's, eBay is 10% of the sell price...at least that is what I have been charged, plus PayPal @ 3%.

 

Wow, didn't realize it was that high...sold 1 or 2 things like 10 years ago, I thought I recall the fees were much less. Wasn't an expensive item, like $40 or so, so maybe my recollection is fuzzy.

 

For people with online "stores" it probably in the 9% range but, yeah, it's about 13% now for Joe Blow. That is the one thing people are getting annoyed about with eBay. Note that PayPal is OWNED by eBay and they pretty much force your buyers to go through PP (mostly).

 

jom

 

Just think, for a few measly percent more, you could consign to Heritage which actually writes descriptions, images the coin, and does real work (as opposed to creating a website and using it continuously with little true overhead/work). If you can get your coins in a signature sale, you would probably receive a higher hammer than with eBay in many cases and you don't have to put up with customers directly.

[coinman_23885]

Actually I just had a seller cut the price more than I even asked for.

 

He came off the price of 3 coins by 40%... $1100 discount. I was blown away.

 

Other than that - with toners - most sellers have very unrealistic prices of what their coins are worth.

 

I really wish someone would come up with a price list for toners... I might pay more for some coins but it would add stability to the market.

 

There will never be a hard and fast price guide for toned coins because every piece is fairly unique, and even with common trends, there are many variations (too many to put in a single guide). The best way to price these is to examine the market in depth for a prolonged period of coin, learning what adds and detracts from values, and using experience to determine a multiplier of FMV (be it 1 or otherwise).

 

Also, many of the sellers are asking for high prices because every now and then someone bites. It doesn't take but one bite with a BIN. After having seen some of the ridiculous prices that some coins have sold for, I cannot blame others for wanting to test the waters.

[GoldFinger1969]

 

Excellent question....I'm not an expert on toning, but it would seem to me it would depend on the coin and if you have enough knowledgeable buyers to make toned coins sell at a premium.

 

I myself would NOT want a toned St. Gaudens, not if I am gonna spend a few thousand dollars on one. OTOH, I might not be averse to adding a special toned silver dollar or dime given the cost of adding one of those.

 

My guess is that since toned coins are not the bulk of sales for most coins/mintages, that the price guides we see are for market transactions and most of those are non-toned.

 

But I'll await the experts opinion on this.

[World Colonial]

I see two other possibilities which I do not think anyone has mentioned.

 

With generic US gold or other coins like it, its possible that the seller is "buried" in the coin because they bought it when bullion was much higher or just over paid for it. I believe there are a lot of people who probably won't negotiate if it requires selling at a loss.

 

The second possibility is that they are hoping to find some uninformed buyer that they can rip off.

 

Different collecting area but I see this all the time on the South African version of eBay, BidOrBuy. I see coins which are listed repeatedly and not only does the seller not lower the starting price, they RAISE it. Utter complete idiocy.

 

The second thing I see are multiple coins in the same grades or near it at wildly different prices or where the asking price is a lot more than the most recent sale which any potential bidder can verify for themselves.

 

The third thing I see are listing prices based upon the FICTIONAL values in the Hern guide (equivalent to the "Red Book"). In a few instances, the catalog price is 10 times or even more what the coin is actually "worth" based upon the most recent sale for the grade.