• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Someone Please Explain the NGC Point System! posted by 00001AAA Coins

14 posts in this topic

  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

Why is a 2007 S George Washington Proof Dollar in PF 70 Ultra Cameo condition worth nearly as many points as a very rare 1937 MS 68 FB Mercury Dime?

 

I still don't understand the NGC point system for U.S. coins. It is clearly not based on rarity. Case in point I have a very nice and very common 2007 S George Washington dollar in PF 70 Ultra Cameo condition. NGC has certified at least 9,982 coins at this level and gives them all 908 points.

 

I also have very nice and very rare 1937 MS 68 FB Mercury dime. NGC has certified a grand total of 3,760 of these 1937 dimes. NGC has graded exactly 15 in this lofty MS 68 FB condition and none finer. This coins earns 925 points.

 

In my humble opinion the 2007 S George Washington dollar in PF 70 Ultra Cameo condition should be worth about 50 points. The 1937 NS 68 FB Mercury dime should be worth above 2,000 points. What do you think?

14881.jpg

 

See more journals by 00001AAA Coins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Explanation: there is no explanation.

 

I have

- a 1947 half dollar, NGC MS-67, population of 66 with none higher, 2,513 points

- a 1946 half dollar, NGC MS-67, population of 41 with 1 higher, 2,368 points

- a 1944 half dollar, NGC MS-67, population of 87 with 1 higher, 2,147 points

- a 1939-D half dollar, NGC MS-67, population of 86 with 2 higher, 2,072 points

 

Total FMV = $6,890. Total points = 9,100

 

I also have a 1992-S clad quarter, NGC PF-70UC, population of 221 with (obviously) none higher, 9,678 points. FMV = $45

 

One modern proof quarter, market value less than 1% of the four gem Walkers, but more Registry points than all four combined.

 

This is just one example. Compare the point values for FT Roosevelt dimes to the point values for equally rare FS Jefferson nickels.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cbc - What set is your 1992S clad quarter in? I have the same quarter in 4 different sets and it is worth 248 points in all of them. It sounds like the quarter just needs a points correction in a specific set. You should contact Ali Emery at NGC and she will fix it within a day or two.

 

On the original issue, points appear to be awarded so as to be relative to other coins of the same year or series. There have been reevaluations of modern coins a few times over the last few years and they have generally increased each time. I do think the modern nickels are low and the presidential dollars are high compared with the other denominations of the series.

 

Part of the reason for the high point values of some modern coins may be to help drive up demand by those collectors looking to increase their overall rankings, but I believe that number has to be pretty low as most collectors are just motivated by their ranking within a set.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You both make excellent points. Another case in point.

 

1969 S Lincoln Memorial Cent NGC MS67RD: Pop 6, FMV $630 - Points 32

 

1995 P Lincoln Memorial Cent NGC MS69RD: Pop 18, FMV $2590 - Points 3071

 

1947 D Jefferson 5 Cent NGC MS67 5FS: Pop 3, FMV not listed - Points 201

NGC MS67* 5FS: Pop 3, FMV not listed - Points 436

NGC MS67 6FS: Pop 2, FMV $2440 - Points 381

 

I have been told by NGC that sale price, total pop graded at NGC, AND grade specifics at PCGS also play a part in the calculation.

 

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cbc - I checked your sets and found the coin you were referring to. I also have a quarter in that slot (a 1993S) in my quarter type set that has the same huge point value. I sent a request to NGC to reevaluate the slot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I asked the same question here http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7247598#Post7247598 , but was given a stock answer that indicated that the registry moderators approved of the differences in treatment. I was asking why a modern clad quarter or an Ike dollar had a higher point score than a MS65 Saint, but their answer I received led me to believe the registry staff might not completely grasp the question I was raising.

 

Hopefully you will have better luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the problem is people are comparing one set to a completely different set. Within the same set lets say Proof Washington 1950-1998 there is a reason I am not #1 and it is because I lack some of the key coins. I do have a couple coins that no one else has and that is why I rank as high as I do.

 

Business strike collectors shouldn't be comparing themselves to proof collectors and visaversa.

 

This is a never ending debate. I do think some people are not happy unless they have something to complain about. :banana:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO, registry points are carefully calculated to encourage the maximum number of high margin coin grading submissions to NGC. Modern US coins take the least amount of research -- they can be graded more efficiently. ~jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like the US tax code--the entire system needs to be revamped from scratch.

 

Let's keep it simple--for the tax code, a simple 20% flat tax for everyone--no corporate welfare, no loopholes for the rich and even the lower income will have some skin in the game just as they have an equal voice in voting. Stats show that this system would vastly increase revenue while diminishing the burden on the middle class.

 

As for the registry point system?--it also has a quick and easy fix. A flat system based on $1 per point...a coin is selling on avg for $100 at auction?--it gets 100 points...there will be some nuances for PQ coins that sell for high amounts and super eye-appealing toners that may blow the curve some..but we use an avg based on auction history and current market value. Annually the points could be adjusted slightly as needed if one series gets hot or the bottom falls out of values.....

 

I don't see it as "some people are never happy if they don't have something to complain about"-- the questions are legitimate and the current point allocations appear to have no consistency. Likewise, we ( registry participants) have never been given a real answer with a numeric or scientific basis for allocations.

 

Having said all of this, I have no interest in "overall ranking" or total registry points-- like many here I'm sure, I have whole sets that I don't even bother to list on the registry ( not to mention all of the album collections and random slabs)..I view it as a set by set competition so if Rosie dimes get more points than CC Morgans--oh well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Responding to jackson64,

 

Again, I'm getting off topic from coins. But I don't think we'd even need 20% flat tax. Something like 90% of the taxes are paid by the top 10% of the earners. The poor really don't pay much in taxes nominally. I think that a 5% flat tax or even less would cover everything we need.

 

But that would mean the top 10% of earners would be paying a lot more nominally. And since they are the people with most of the political influence, a flat tax unlikely to gain any real traction in Washington. I know that there are politicians who say they want a flat tax, but I've heard promises from those guys way too many times to believe it.

 

Also, if people had more money, they'd work less. I certainly would. If everyone in the U.S. had enough money to buy everything they needed and wanted for the rest of their lives, just imagine how fast things would get screwed up.

 

One example, I seriously doubt that anyone really wants to pick up the trash from your curb. They are simply trash collectors because they have to do it to pay the bills. If every trash collector in the country were, for whatever reason, become wealthy overnight, there's no doubt that a large percentage would opt for an early retirement. Then who would pick up the trash?

 

It's like a job that I recently left. I know for a fact that the company pulled in over $20 million a month, with only 30 employees and extremely little overhead. And there's no doubt that the owners could have easily paid me $1 million a year and still made out like bandits. But if I would have made $1 million a year, there's no way I would have worked there for 10 years. I would have worked half of that, then set up a situation where I could live off the interest for the rest of my life.

 

Unfortunately it seems that the only way to keep society and the economy at large going, there has to be a lot of people on the hamster wheel. And high taxes for the poor keep those people on the wheel. I don't like it. But it seems to be the only way.

 

P.S. I just realized how political that little rant is. And I know political post aren't welcome. I'll delete it if anyone wants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be difficult and a lot of individuals would cry unfair if the rules were changed significantly in the middle of the game. I can remember this happening in the Roosevelt series a few years ago and it changed up the rankings so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point system used by NGC makes little sense to me. I'm a basic U.S. type set collector who intends to ignore the modern slots (that have no personal appeal) and will thus ensure that my rise in the registry rankings will be limited. For example, granting thousands of points to a common high graded Eisenhower dollar compared to something older and much rarer in a lesser condition makes a mockery of the registry.

 

So, I don't intend to play the game. I thus use the registry to help give some boundaries to my collection and a place to where I can share my collection with others via an easy link.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not trying to start an argument, just stating some facts. Of the 50,000+ (non S minted) Eisenhower Dollars sent to NGC for grading, there is a grand total of 105 examples which grade mint state 67. I find nothing common about that. The coins were large and hard to strike at that time. Merry Christmas everyone...MAILMAN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes erwindoc...people would complain if NGC changed the rules in the middle of the game.....in fact......( cue the flashback music and fade to dream sequence of a brief time ago...)

 

It was not long ago that NGC did that very same thing--changed the rules in the middle of the game. It was with World Coins. Some collectors had spent thousands to tens of thousands building sets that could be included in the Collectors Society registry.

 

NGC decided that it was in position to squeeze and monopolize the world coin grading market since they had the premier registry for World Coins ( and still do by far). So they gave people a few weeks of discounted crossover grading options on their PCGS coins ( which I'm sure was quite profitable)..and then they eliminated vast quantities of existing coins from the CS registry--aka all PCGS world slabs...no reasoning of " we feel their grading of world coins is not correct and can't be included on equal basis as NGC slabs"..nope...just a notice in the middle of the game that the collectors who had spent years and thousands+ in money would not be allowed to include the other team's coins in the registry anymore.

 

Not only did dozens of complete sets disappear, and dozens of other #1 sets became incomplete and dropped in rankings...dozens of long time members and friends of ours here left for good...

 

So yes, there is a precedent for this happening--a rules change in the middle of the game--and it didn't go well at all and many people were unhappy....so let's leave things as they are--as confusing, arbitrary and mixed up as it is, it does work well in a set by set ranking system... as for the "overall rankings of total registry points"...the members with their 15 prezzie sets, 5 state quarter sets and 20 complete Sacagawea proof 70 sets can enjoy their million points and top 200 rank- more power to them if that's what floats their boat. ( maybe they have 20 grandkids and want to leave a complete set for each one?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites