Can anyone explain this toned ASE....

[TonerGuy]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-AMERICAN-SILVER-EAGLE-NGC-CERTIFIED-MS-69-ER-STRANGE-COLOR-TONING-BLUE-/111226001605?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item19e59618c5

 

The cert number matches... why is the coin greyish in color and how can you tone purplish/blue spots through the slab ?

[errorist]

From what I have learned plastic off gasses vapor as it warms and the gas can chemically react with the coin metal which can make for some quite spectacular toning...... The warmer the plastic becomes the more gas is produced...

[Keigwin]

Do you think those pictures look natural?

Lance.

[Kurtdog]

Define "natural." When it's in a slab it's acceptable enough for that market. That's all you have to know.

[nk1nk]

I know kurtdog can derail a thread pretty quick but he's right, if that coin was raw nobody would touch it but because its slabbed by NGC it will close at a nice price.

 

I'm guessing the only reason NGC slabbed it was because it came to them in a sealed monster box. Probably as mentioned the green plastic box plus extreme temperature equals this coin.

 

If you cracked that coin out and sent it back to NGC a thousand times, it would never make it back into a problem free holder.

 

 

Nick

[WoodenJefferson]

[TonerGuy]

I know kurtdog can derail a thread pretty quick but he's right, if that coin was raw nobody would touch it but because its slabbed by NGC it will close at a nice price.

 

I'm guessing the only reason NGC slabbed it was because it came to them in a sealed monster box. Probably as mentioned the green plastic box plus extreme temperature equals this coin.

 

If you cracked that coin out and sent it back to NGC a thousand times, it would never make it back into a problem free holder.

 

 

Nick

 

So when NGC is slabbing these early releases is there no quality control ?

 

You think the coin came out of the green plastic box like that ?

 

Is it possible it was gassed in the NGC holder ?

[jom]

I know kurtdog can derail a thread pretty quick but he's right, if that coin was raw nobody would touch it but because its slabbed by NGC it will close at a nice price.

 

I'm guessing the only reason NGC slabbed it was because it came to them in a sealed monster box. Probably as mentioned the green plastic box plus extreme temperature equals this coin.

 

If you cracked that coin out and sent it back to NGC a thousand times, it would never make it back into a problem free holder.

 

 

Nick

 

So when NGC is slabbing these early releases is there no quality control ?

 

You think the coin came out of the green plastic box like that ?

 

Is it possible it was gassed in the NGC holder ?

 

I think the latter. Same with many PCGS slabbed coins as well.

 

jom

[nk1nk]

Yes I have heard of coins coming straight out of the green mint boxes wildly toned.

 

Yes there is quality control, but how do you put a coin that came straight from the mint in an artificial toned holder? The boxes had to still be sealed to receive the early release designation.

 

No I don't think it was gassed in the holder, but can't give an argument that it wasn't for certain toned that way.

 

Nick

[nk1nk]

I know kurtdog can derail a thread pretty quick but he's right, if that coin was raw nobody would touch it but because its slabbed by NGC it will close at a nice price.

 

I'm guessing the only reason NGC slabbed it was because it came to them in a sealed monster box. Probably as mentioned the green plastic box plus extreme temperature equals this coin.

 

If you cracked that coin out and sent it back to NGC a thousand times, it would never make it back into a problem free holder.

 

 

Nick

 

So when NGC is slabbing these early releases is there no quality control ?

 

You think the coin came out of the green plastic box like that ?

 

Is it possible it was gassed in the NGC holder ?

 

I think the latter. Same with many PCGS slabbed coins as well.

 

jom

 

 

I don't necessarily think so, I think gassing a coin in the slab is extremely difficult to do. They are not air tight but pretty close and if it was easily done you would see a number of blatant AT coins in holders. I think a lot of people say this because they can't believe PCGS would slab some of the ASE's that they do. PCGS is much more lenient then NGC, which I like PCGS's approach and agree with most of the ones in their plastic.

 

Nick

[bochiman]

Do you think those pictures look natural?

Lance.

 

I'm with Lance as, when I looked at the pics in the link, I think something was done post the shot. Doubt it will look like that in hand.

 

Saying "it is in a slab so it is acceptable" like some may do, is just lazy and uninformative.

 

Not every picture is precise as to what the coin looks like in hand...and some of them, "gasp", are due to people doing it on purpose to maximize the selling price. (some are just because the person doing it can't shoot as well as others).

 

Looking at the pic real quick, I am guessing, in hand, it may have more of a sea-green toning in the lower spots....

[Keigwin]

I was only guessing that perhaps the pix are off a little. Seller seems to be kind of inconsistent with color and exposure.

 

The auction for the OP coin is this. Alongside it is another coin from the seller, an 1804 quarter. (Talk about extremes!)

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe they look more like this?

 

 

Seller doesn't talk about a dark coin. Just some blue and purple. Not a look I go for but different strokes...

[WoodenJefferson]

Same image from auction tweaked

 

 

Original

 

[$ilverHawk]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-AMERICAN-SILVER-EAGLE-NGC-CERTIFIED-MS-69-ER-STRANGE-COLOR-TONING-BLUE-/111226001605?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item19e59618c5

 

The cert number matches... why is the coin greyish in color and how can you tone purplish/blue spots through the slab ?

 

Yes, the cert number matches, but there are no photographs that I can find on the NGC web site of the original submission. Why do you think that there has been toning in the slab when there are no photographs to compare?

 

Carl

[Kurtdog]

Saying "it is in a slab so it is acceptable" like some may do, is just lazy and uninformative.

Excuse me, but that's "lazy and uninformative," as it's not what anyone said. If it's in their slab, it's acceptable quality to them, to represent to their market. That's their decision to make. It's not yours, or mine, or anyone else's. Our decision is whether to buy that quality represented or not.

[JJSingleton]

If image is accurate it is highly suspect that NGC would have holdered this at MS69. Luster is too muted to deserve that grade regardless of how clean the surfaces may be. My opinion is that this was gassed in the holder as an experiment and did not go very well.

 

Fortunately for the seller there are many collectors that will buy the holder and not the coin.

[TonerGuy]

I would love to know more about the gassing process as well... Is there already a thread about it ?

 

And if this coin wasnt gassed I have to concur as to my confusion as to 1) how this coin could grade MS69 and 2) what could have caused this toning on the way from the Mint ?

 

 

[Kurtdog]

My opinion is that this was gassed in the holder as an experiment and did not go very well.

Exactly how would that be accomplished? You're talking about compromising the integrity of the slab. One would expect that would leave a telltale sign at the point at which the slab was compromised. That's why I ask. I'm not trying to be a gadfly, although that's kind of my reputation around these parts, now, .

[nk1nk]

I know old pcgs rattlers had some coins gassed but I have never seen a solid example of a gassed coin in other slabs, I don't see how you accomplish the airflow needed without compromising the slab.

 

I know there is a thread somewhere about ASE's coming toned straight out of monster boxes and being slabbed by NGC. I believe coinsrfun has some insight, maybe she will chime in.

 

Nick

[JJSingleton]

My opinion is that this was gassed in the holder as an experiment and did not go very well.

Exactly how would that be accomplished? You're talking about compromising the integrity of the slab. One would expect that would leave a telltale sign at the point at which the slab was compromised. That's why I ask. I'm not trying to be a gadfly, although that's kind of my reputation around these parts, now, .

TPG slabs are not air tight and the TPGs do not make this claim. Today's slabs are more air tight than in the past but anyone with the right equipment can gas a slab under pressure introducing the coin to the gas of your choosing.

[Kurtdog]

My opinion is that this was gassed in the holder as an experiment and did not go very well.

Exactly how would that be accomplished? You're talking about compromising the integrity of the slab. One would expect that would leave a telltale sign at the point at which the slab was compromised. That's why I ask. I'm not trying to be a gadfly, although that's kind of my reputation around these parts, now, .

TPG slabs are not air tight and the TPGs do not make this claim. Today's slabs are more air tight than in the past but anyone with the right equipment can gas a slab under pressure introducing the coin to the gas of your choosing.

I'm just curious. What kind of equipment would that be? This seems a little more sophisticated than a chemistry set. One would have to have that sophisticated equipment then have nothing better to do with it in his spare time than be so inclined. I wonder what the odds of that happening are.

[e1cnr]

I have seen 'funny' colors on coins in government packaging - my thoughts they were the result of contaminents in wash or on hands of mint employess.

 

I think many would agree that the coin did not look like that when slabbed - so something developed later.

 

I am thinking some sort of light oil from production that was invisible but reacted with the slab - or else something on someones hands, which would explain the edges but not the point spots in the middle, which could be a sneeze.

 

Gassing of slab would not result in something like this unless there was already something on the SAE at the points. Gassing will result from toning from point of source of gas - so somewhere on the edge.

[BAJJERFAN]

I know old pcgs rattlers had some coins gassed but I have never seen a solid example of a gassed coin in other slabs, I don't see how you accomplish the airflow needed without compromising the slab.

 

I know there is a thread somewhere about ASE's coming toned straight out of monster boxes and being slabbed by NGC. I believe coinsrfun has some insight, maybe she will chime in.

 

Nick

 

If the slabs aren't airtight, then they could probably be put into a vacuum chamber, the air sucked out and a toning mixture admitted. It would eventually make its way into the slab.

[BAJJERFAN]

While I can't vouch for the quality of his photography, I can say that I have done business with this seller and he is first rate in my book. He pays well for nice stuff and is easy to work with.

[e1cnr]

My opinion is that this was gassed in the holder as an experiment and did not go very well.

Exactly how would that be accomplished? You're talking about compromising the integrity of the slab. One would expect that would leave a telltale sign at the point at which the slab was compromised. That's why I ask. I'm not trying to be a gadfly, although that's kind of my reputation around these parts, now, .

TPG slabs are not air tight and the TPGs do not make this claim. Today's slabs are more air tight than in the past but anyone with the right equipment can gas a slab under pressure introducing the coin to the gas of your choosing.

I'm just curious. What kind of equipment would that be? This seems a little more sophisticated than a chemistry set. One would have to have that sophisticated equipment then have nothing better to do with it in his spare time than be so inclined. I wonder what the odds of that happening are.

 

In Weimer White's Coin Chemistry book, he shows an experiment using a zip-lock bag and a small dish holding solution. CoinWorld did an article on it.

[BAJJERFAN]

My opinion is that this was gassed in the holder as an experiment and did not go very well.

Exactly how would that be accomplished? You're talking about compromising the integrity of the slab. One would expect that would leave a telltale sign at the point at which the slab was compromised. That's why I ask. I'm not trying to be a gadfly, although that's kind of my reputation around these parts, now, .

TPG slabs are not air tight and the TPGs do not make this claim. Today's slabs are more air tight than in the past but anyone with the right equipment can gas a slab under pressure introducing the coin to the gas of your choosing.

I'm just curious. What kind of equipment would that be? This seems a little more sophisticated than a chemistry set. One would have to have that sophisticated equipment then have nothing better to do with it in his spare time than be so inclined. I wonder what the odds of that happening are.

 

In Weimer White's Coin Chemistry book, he shows an experiment using a zip-lock bag and a small dish holding solution. CoinWorld did an article on it.

 

Many chemists have access to simple vacuum ovens. Google vacuum ovens and check out the eBay listings. Simply put the slab into one, turn on the vacuum pump and have at it. I expect a welding supply store should be able to order special gas mixtures containing hydrogen sulfide and/or nitrogen oxides.

[kryptonitecomics]

The coins looked gassed after the fact in the slab but it's impossible to know for sure unless their are images of the coin untoned in the holder when NGC graded it. There are lots of theories floating around and I believe they are all plausible to a degree....the coin could have come already toned from the mint...I doubt it but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[errorist]

A good experiment to do would be placing it in the oven at 170 degrees F. just before the plastic melts and see what happens over time...

[TonerGuy]

While I can't vouch for the quality of his photography, I can say that I have done business with this seller and he is first rate in my book. He pays well for nice stuff and is easy to work with.

 

If you are on personal terms with him can you ask him if the coin looks as it appears in the photos ?

 

That might clear up a few issues. Thanks.

[BAJJERFAN]

While I can't vouch for the quality of his photography, I can say that I have done business with this seller and he is first rate in my book. He pays well for nice stuff and is easy to work with.

 

If you are on personal terms with him can you ask him if the coin looks as it appears in the photos ?

 

That might clear up a few issues. Thanks.

 

He refers to it as "phony" toning, so I'm pretty sure he knows it is AT