What is the Rare Coin Market?

[Jim Beam]

More and more I read about the "rare coin market". I see it in auction ads, coin listings, educational articles, etc. but I have no idea what the definition of a rare coin is or what line differentiates a rare coin from a non-rare coin. Just as important is the fact I don't know if I have any in my collection. I would be interested in your thoughts or understanding of what constitutes a "rare coin" and if their is a definition/standard what that might be. Thanks.

[okbustchaser]

It's easier to say what it isn't. For example, if one can go to one's bank and buy examples by the roll then regardless of how scarce a particular coin may be in MS-68 (69, 70) then it isn't a rare coin.

 

Same thing with many so-called key dates. The fact that the 1916 D dime is always in demand does not make it rare. If one can buy an example at any medium sized coin show (and most smaller ones) then it isn't rare--just expensive.

[123cents]

A rare coin is one that you don't find on Ebay, Heritage Auctions, and other dealers websites that often.

[RWB]

It's anything the marketing person says it is, thus it has no meaning, and without meaning it is nothing. "It don't think, therefore it ain't."

[Houston Investor]

Its a catch all term like "The (Numismatic) Industry."

 

Like a Jovian planet its composed of many layers - the coins that make up the PCGS 3000 would be a starting point. One could take sub categories which they invest in to make up their own custom index.

 

I once had a customer at a show tell me he invested in equal parts of Commems, Walkers, Dollars, and Gold. The closest thing I can think of would be the PCGS 3000 or a composite of each of the above. However, in these times, when coin shop titles have "Silver and Gold" I believe gold and silver bullion values (bullion coins) would be another integral part.

[michael]

ts a catch all term like "The (Numismatic) Industry."

 

100% correct

 

"the rare coin market" is basically a "catch all" marketing phrase for the general market fin which all collectible coins are bought and sold

 

 

 

dont read much into these advertising terms just take them as a general wildly_fanciful_statement

[World Colonial]

A rare coin is one that you don't find on Ebay, Heritage Auctions, and other dealers websites that often.

 

Agreed. There aren't really that many actually rare coins.

 

Most US coins are not rare, only expensive. And they are more available than non-US coins most of the time because of their prices.

 

Most world coins are not rare either, but many of them are not available because of their low market values. So either no one pays any attention to them or it isn't worth selling them.

 

For the coins I collect, some of them are actually rare and many others scarce, but even then, I have found a strong correlation between the availability and the market price. The coins have become more available since I resumed collecting in 1998 because they sell for more now.

 

I believe that John Ford once made the comment that if someone could buy a coin at any time simply by picking up the phone and calling any number of dealers, the coin is not rare. My arbitrary definition of rarity is probably somewhat less strict than his, but I agree with this sentiment.

 

Sometimes coins are not actually rare, but are not often available. For example, based upon the estimated survivors, I do not consider either the 1794 dollar or 1796 half cent (either variety) rare. However, I do not see them for sale often. The latter almost never.

 

On the other hand, each date of the drapped bust small eagle reverse half dollar which are about equal in rarity, I see both of them a lot more. Neither of them are hard to find at all except in a better or at least decent grade.

[World Colonial]

It's anything the marketing person says it is, thus it has no meaning, and without meaning it is nothing. "It don't think, therefore it ain't."

 

I agree with this comment also. You are are never going to see a dealer name their business "John Doe's common as a grain of sand on the beach coins", even though it would usually be more accurate.

[Kurtdog]

It's anything the marketing person says it is, thus it has no meaning, and without meaning it is nothing.

It's just marketing grading.

 

It don't think, therefore it ain't."

Roger, you're no Descartes.

[Jim Beam]

Great responses to my question; I appreciate them very much. The message to me from the responses to date is there are likely as many interpretations of what constiutes a rare coin/market as there are collectors! I am going to address the question a bit differently to see if it generates additional replys or additions to those received. Here goes:

 

In the September 9, 2013, issue of Coin World, the much respected Q. David Bowers states in his "The Joys of Collecting" article the following and I quote:

 

"Several well-planned factors have combined to give the rare coin market a very good foundation - more so today than ever before."

 

The interpretation for me when I read this article is there must be some reasonable descriptive definition of a rare coin/rare coin market or he probably wouldn't have worded things the way he did. What does his statement mean to you?

 

I have purchased coins from "Mark Feld Rare Coins" and, without trying to put Mark in the hot seat, maybe he will offer his rendition of the term/concept.

 

Finally, please understand I am not trying to stir the pot here or make trouble. I simply confused by the attributes that qualify a coin to be called a "rare coin" or which make such coin a participant in the rare coin market. The answer is obviously not black or white; on or off; a 1 or a 2; etc. Thanks.

 

 

[World Colonial]

In the September 9, 2013, issue of Coin World, the much respected Q. David Bowers states in his "The Joys of Collecting" article the following and I quote:

 

"Several well-planned factors have combined to give the rare coin market a very good foundation - more so today than ever before."

 

The interpretation for me when I read this article is there must be some reasonable descriptive definition of a rare coin/rare coin market or he probably wouldn't have worded things the way he did. What does his statement mean to you?

 

I interpret that comment differently than I believe you do.

 

I first started collecting in 1975, took it up again in 1987, then again in 1991 and finally for good in 1998. I first became aware of David Bowers in the late 1970's and subscribed to his B&M newsletter in the late 1980's.

 

My perception is that the market depth today and in the recent past has increased substantially. In addition to buyers being able and willing to pay more, there are more of them. A lot more of them and many have "deep pockets".

 

I do not view coins in the same "league" as more prominent fields such as art (masters paintings) but I think its stature both relatively and absolutely as a legitimate "investment" market has increased a lot since I started collecting.

 

What I describe applies mostly to US coins but also to a much lesser extent to selective non-US (or world) coins.

[DaveG]

Jim Beam,

 

Unfortunately, I think you've already received the best answers you can receive.

 

"Rare Coin" and "Rare Coin Market" are deliberately vague terms that, without detailed qualification, may mean something different to everyone who uses or reads/hears the terms.

 

For example, are you distinguishing between "scarce" and "rare"? Are you asking what a specialist dealer with 25 years of experience considers "rare" or what a beginning collector or a member of the public considers "rare"? Do you mean "grade rarity" or "absolute rarity"?

 

 

As far as whether you own any "rare coins", all I can say is "If you have to ask the question, then you don't own any rare coins."

 

That is, if you can't say if they meet a reasonable definition of "rare", then they're most likely not "rare."

[AstroTrain]

I would say when used in advertising "rare coin" = "collector coin". I honestly believe most advertisements showcase over priced garbage and call them rare coins.

 

Just my opinion, if you want to spend $49.95 plus shipping and handling on $2 coin with gold plate....so be it.

[Arizonadesertrat]

The phrase 'rare coin market' has very little meaning to me. Once in a blue moon, the market for just about all types of coins has crashed, and dealers struggled to sell anything.

 

The norm is that sectors of the market for collector coins coexist, and usually behave differently. Such sectors include classic gold, Morgan dollars, large cents, tokens, high-grade moderns, etc. At any given time, some sectors will be on fire and others nearly dead.

[James_OldeTowne]

More and more I read about the "rare coin market". I see it in auction ads, coin listings, educational articles, etc. but I have no idea what the definition of a rare coin is or what line differentiates a rare coin from a non-rare coin. Just as important is the fact I don't know if I have any in my collection. I would be interested in your thoughts or understanding of what constitutes a "rare coin" and if their is a definition/standard what that might be. Thanks.

Colloquially speaking, a "rare" coin, quite simply, is one that is difficult to buy. That doesn't mean there are few of them necessarily. There may be many thousands, as in the case of the high relief Saints, but high demand makes them "rare".

 

"Rare" need not mean the same thing to everyone, again, colloquially speaking.

[michael]

Re: What is the Rare Coin Market?

 

it is demagoguery, collecting, harlots, fun, strumpts, accumulation, upgrading, power of plastic, greed, grading arbitrage, fellowship, screwing, knowledge, lies, quick thinking, whores, end users, taking advantage, preying upon desires, collusion and many things in between

[rons]

Wow Michael, how do you really feel? I believe you have witnessed some unsavory gooings on during your collecting years. How about sharing a few stories of the harlots, greedy dogs, and other assorted low lifes you have met?

[Walkerfan]

Wow Michael, how do you really feel? I believe you have witnessed some unsavory gooings on during your collecting years. How about sharing a few stories of the harlots, greedy dogs, and other assorted low lifes you have met?

 

Yes---I am sure there are some stories there. It sounds like a Travis Bickle soliloquy from the movie Taxi Driver.

[michael]

i am sorry i had a bad day with explosive gas

 

i guess the moral to the story is; be careful out there while having the time of your life in the coin game

[jimjum12]

More and more I read about the "rare coin market". I see it in auction ads, coin listings, educational articles, etc. but I have no idea what the definition of a rare coin is or what line differentiates a rare coin from a non-rare coin. Just as important is the fact I don't know if I have any in my collection. I would be interested in your thoughts or understanding of what constitutes a "rare coin" and if their is a definition/standard what that might be. Thanks.

Colloquially speaking, a "rare" coin, quite simply, is one that is difficult to buy. That doesn't mean there are few of them necessarily. There may be many thousands, as in the case of the high relief Saints, but high demand makes them "rare".

 

"Rare" need not mean the same thing to everyone, again, colloquially speaking.

 

If your "series" + date search yields 10 examples or less on eBay on a given day If your Heitage Archives search yields less than 2 dozen results ....... the Rare Coin Market is comprised of those coins where the money and the desire are there but the selection isn't. Quality and eye appeal make some scarce coins rare. The internet makes the rare seem common. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Does "rare" have to mean virtually unattainable ?

[World Colonial]

A coin that has as many as 10 on eBay at any given time is still scarce? That is common by any sensible standard.

 

A coin can be "rare" or actually rare without being expensive. Rarity has to do with supply and not demand. Some actually rare coins sell for a pittance, which is one of the reasons no one ever sees them. To the owner, there is no point in selling them or even offering them for sale.

 

Per the examples I gave above, there is also a difference between availability and actual rarity. For whatever reason or reasons, some coins which are approximately equally scarce are more or less available than others, but this does not change the rarity either.

 

There is no absolute standard of rarity, only in a relative sense. Coins like the 1861 "original" CSA half dollar, 1792 Washington large eagle (silver) Getz half dollar and the 1760 Chile pillar four reales are rare by any standard and they essentially never come up for sale either. A coin which is a mid to low R4 or R5 on the Judd scale, not really. Especially for a US coin, I would expect that even if the coin is not "officially" available for sale, you can probably buy it if you have the money. A prominent dealer or auction firm will have current owners as clients and can approach them for you.

[jimjum12]

A coin that has as many as 10 on eBay at any given time is still scarce? That is common by any sensible standard.

 

A coin can be "rare" or actually rare without being expensive. Rarity has to do with supply and not demand. Some actually rare coins sell for a pittance, which is one of the reasons no one ever sees them. To the owner, there is no point in selling them or even offering them for sale.

 

Per the examples I gave above, there is also a difference between availability and actual rarity. For whatever reason or reasons, some coins which are approximately equally scarce are more or less available than others, but this does not change the rarity either.

 

There is no absolute standard of rarity, only in a relative sense. Coins like the 1861 "original" CSA half dollar, 1792 Washington large eagle (silver) Getz half dollar and the 1760 Chile pillar four reales are rare by any standard and they essentially never come up for sale either. A coin which is a mid to low R4 or R5 on the Judd scale, not really. Especially for a US coin, I would expect that even if the coin is not "officially" available for sale, you can probably buy it if you have the money. A prominent dealer or auction firm will have current owners as clients and can approach them for you.

 

I see differing degrees of rarity....... something with only a handful known goes beyond rarity...... especially things like the 1794's and 1804's where each specimen almost becomes a market unto itself. Then again, I'm trying to reconcile this with the notion odf a more widespread concept of "Rare Coin Market"...... tempered with a consideration for items that may have 6 specimens available on eBay but not even 1 that is physically availabe, for example, here in the entire state of Virginia. It's certainly a most debatable topic. I mean, is the Mona Lisa "rare" ? ....... for that matter, am I "rare" ? .... I mean, I don't feel particularly rare..... especially on Monday morning GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I would think common would be more along the lines of 100 availabe on eBay on any given Sunday.....

[World Colonial]

Yes, there are relative degrees of rarity and its ultimately a matter of opinion.

 

With some coins like the 1794 dollar, they have acquired a reputation which is not matched by their actual scarcity. With approximately 125-150 known, it isn't common, but there are many (even circulating) coins that are actually scarcer or much scarcer than this one. This number is only a mid R-4 on the Judd scale. I agree it is a very significant coin but not nearly as significant as most do given its price. If it were a lot cheaper compared to other coins as it was in the past, I believe that most collectors would have a lower opinion of it. As far as I am concerned, the coin is over rated.

[jimjum12]

....thanks for your response. My expertise in the area of coin rarity leaves much to be desired..... it's still quite the learning experience for me. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[World Colonial]

....thanks for your response. My expertise in the area of coin rarity leaves much to be desired..... it's still quite the learning experience for me. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I know that you were only using the 1794 dollar as an example, but it is a reasonably good one to illustrate how collectors misperceive scarcity and to some extent, significance.

 

I started collecting in 1975 at the age of 10. I knew a lot less about coins then than now and there are still many others who know a lot more than I do today. And possibly, this coin and others somewhat less prominent were more highly thought of then than I believe. I certainly knew of this coin but in the limited exposure I had to coins, never had any reason to believe it was as big of a deal as most apparently think today.

 

To give you a few examples, the coins I first came across as significant were the 1822 half eagle, 1804 dollar, 1913 LH nickel, 1894-S dime and 1876-CC 20C. Today, I consider the 1794 dollar as maybe more signifcant than the latter two. I can also see why others think it is more significant than the 1804 dollar and 1913 LH nickel but I do not. It is subjective but the primary reason is because I place a much higher emphasis on the actual scarcity of the coin than on the grade, especially when the grade is some specific MS.

 

I believe that most people form their perceptions based upon the influece of others, just like in any other area. In other words, if they hear or read that a coin is "rare" or significant from enough people, they generally accept it.

 

The best way to see how people's perceptions change over time is probably by looking at auction descriptions. Yes, I know that the auction business itself has changed but even accounting for that, I would say that the more expensive a coin is, the bigger deal it supposedly becomes. From a numismatic standpoint, that is nonsense and in actuality, there are a very large number of coins (especially from the United States) which are grossly overpriced and overrated based upon their actual numismatic merits because there isn't really much if anything significant about them at all except for the price.

 

So what I would tell you is, just make up your own mind, whatever it may be. But I would caution you or anyone else not to fool yourself about any coin to rationalize overpaying for it.

[RWB]

I checked the local farmer's market on Saturday, but did not find any "rare corn" there either...

[Kurtdog]

I checked the local farmer's market on Saturday, but did not find any "rare corn" there either...

Corny.

[MarkFeld]

....thanks for your response. My expertise in the area of coin rarity leaves much to be desired..... it's still quite the learning experience for me. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I know that you were only using the 1794 dollar as an example, but it is a reasonably good one to illustrate how collectors misperceive scarcity and to some extent, significance.

 

I started collecting in 1975 at the age of 10. I knew a lot less about coins then than now and there are still many others who know a lot more than I do today. And possibly, this coin and others somewhat less prominent were more highly thought of then than I believe. I certainly knew of this coin but in the limited exposure I had to coins, never had any reason to believe it was as big of a deal as most apparently think today.

 

To give you a few examples, the coins I first came across as significant were the 1822 half eagle, 1804 dollar, 1913 LH nickel, 1894-S dime and 1876-CC 20C. Today, I consider the 1794 dollar as maybe more signifcant than the latter two. I can also see why others think it is more significant than the 1804 dollar and 1913 LH nickel but I do not. It is subjective but the primary reason is because I place a much higher emphasis on the actual scarcity of the coin than on the grade, especially when the grade is some specific MS.

 

I believe that most people form their perceptions based upon the influece of others, just like in any other area. In other words, if they hear or read that a coin is "rare" or significant from enough people, they generally accept it.

 

The best way to see how people's perceptions change over time is probably by looking at auction descriptions. Yes, I know that the auction business itself has changed but even accounting for that, I would say that the more expensive a coin is, the bigger deal it supposedly becomes. From a numismatic standpoint, that is nonsense and in actuality, there are a very large number of coins (especially from the United States) which are grossly overpriced and overrated based upon their actual numismatic merits because there isn't really much if anything significant about them at all except for the price.

 

So what I would tell you is, just make up your own mind, whatever it may be. But I would caution you or anyone else not to fool yourself about any coin to rationalize overpaying for it.

 

I disagree with your assertion that there "there isn't really much if anything significant about them at all except for the price". Something (significant) accounts for that high price, and that's regardless of whether you feel such coins are overpriced or not. It might be the rarity factor and/or the coolness factor and/or the demand. Without something significant affecting the price, it wouldn't be so high/where it is.

[World Colonial]

Yes, I am sure you do. Many have objected to the sentiments I have expressed here on this topic in the past and I am sure many more will do so in the future. If I had better qualified that quote you used, would that have made any difference?

 

A coin can be "cool" or "neat' yet that does not remotely explain from a numismatic standpoint what exactly is so significant about it and why it costs so much versus other coins. Rarity does not either because many coins are rare or "rare" and still sell for much less. There are no absolutes in my claim or these opinions, only relatively so. That the coins I alluded to in my prior post are in demand is obvious. That is why they sell for these prices and since anyone can spend their money however they please, they can pay whatever they want..

 

Given that you hold this opinion, why don't you pick one or more of the coins you have in mind and explain what exactly is so significant about them especially given what they are worth? Is there even one coin anywhere that you think is relatively overpriced compared to its numismatic merits?

 

I suspect that if you provide one or more examples where we disagree, that I can find many others (from within US coinage and elsewhere) that have a comporable numismatic pedigree and still sell for much less.

 

[MarkFeld]

Yes, I am sure you do. Many have objected to the sentiments I have expressed here on this topic in the past and I am sure many more will do so in the future. If I had better qualified that quote you used, would that have made any difference?

 

A coin can be "cool" or "neat' yet that does not remotely explain from a numismatic standpoint what exactly is so significant about it and why it costs so much versus other coins. Rarity does not either because many coins are rare or "rare" and still sell for much less. There are no absolutes in my claim or these opinions, only relatively so. That the coins I alluded to in my prior post are in demand is obvious. That is why they sell for these prices and since anyone can spend their money however they please, they can pay whatever they want..

 

Given that you hold this opinion, why don't you pick one or more of the coins you have in mind and explain what exactly is so significant about them especially given what they are worth? Is there even one coin anywhere that you think is relatively overpriced compared to its numismatic merits?

 

I suspect that if you provide one or more examples where we disagree, that I can find many others (from within US coinage and elsewhere) that have a comporable numismatic pedigree and still sell for much less.

 

I think a number of coins are over-priced, relative to their rarity. But, regardless of what I think of them, the demand is there and it drives the price.

 

As a couple of examples, I feel that Three Legged Buffalo Nickels and (to an even greater degree) 1955 Doubled Die Obverse Lincoln Cents are neat coins. Even in low grade unc. condition, I wouldn't call them rare, however. Yet they bring prices one would expect for rarer coins.

 

Ditto for High Relief Saints - they bring prices commensurate with typically much rarer coins. But I can easily understand it. Due to their extraordinary beauty, demand is high and high prices follow.

 

The demand for such coins is what's significant, even if they aren't "rare".