ANACS photo grade question. (Photo's Added)

[nk1nk]

I have seen these ANACS photo grade coins online several times but never paid much attention to them. Today I came across one at my local coin shop and they are pretty cool. The coin and photo cert were in a capitol type holder and had a velvet maroon pouch it fit into. Is this original packaging? What kind of premium, if any do these carry? The coin was a common date morgan ms65 and looked high end for the grade. Thanks in advance.

 

Nick

[CaptHenway]

Those were privately packaged. We just returned the coin in a flip with a photo certificate.

TD

 

[nk1nk]

Thanks, that what I thought.

 

Nick

[RJP]

Alway like the after market holders for the ANACS photo certs

[nk1nk]

I couldn't pass up the price so I bought it, here are some pictures. I may try and sell it soon but for now it's nice to own a little bit of history. I believe Jeff Isaac worked for NGC as a grader, any other info on him would be appreciated. Sorry for the large pictures but photobucket was acting up today and wouldn't let me edit the photo's.

 

Nick

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I couldn't pass up the price so I bought it, here are some pictures. I may try and sell it soon but for now it's nice to own a little bit of history. I believe Jeff Isaac worked for NGC as a grader, any other info on him would be appreciated. Sorry for the large pictures but photobucket was acting up today and wouldn't let me edit the photo's.

 

Nick

 

 

Yes, Jeff was a grader at NGC, and a very sharp one, at that. He and I worked there together, during part of my time at NGC.

[yonico]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

[Conder101]

Actually the photos are high def enough for comparison. These aren't half tones or anything like that, they are actual photographs with resolution down to the molecular level. Much greater than anything you can get digitally.

 

Now you could switch out the coin and there was a lot of that going on (big market on certificates without coins, dealer has a coin without a certificate he passes the word around and buys a certificate from another dealer that doesn't have the coin that goes with it.) Saw a lot of that back in the early 80's, lots of dealers would have a stack of certificates in their case and other dealers would go through them looking for certificates they could pair up with coins in their inventory. If the buyer would take the time to compare the coin to the picture they could see they don't go together, but most collectors never bothered to do so.

[RJP]

I have seen a question on the aftermarket holder so I thought I would add these pictures from the "Report on ANACS"

The last two pages have the ads that will sell the holders but someone would ask to see the whole document so here it is.

 

 

Trying to get the pictures in here. ok i got them now!

[e1cnr]

the holder and velvet pouch came from Capital Plastics

[RJP]

Here are the last two pages with the ads in it.

 

Camptown Coins is still in business today and the phone number is still the same, I did call them.

 

I have a photo cert with Robert S Riemer as the owner.

[PerryHall]

I have several gold coins with the ANACS certificates. The photos on the certificates are extremely high resolution and any microscopic tic marks on the coin should match up perfectly on the pics. ANACS kept the pics on file and used them when the ANA published their official grading book. When I bought the book I was surprised and delighted to see they used one of my coins in their book (1906 $2 1/2 gold coin for the MS grade).

[CaptHenway]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

 

Not true. Anybody who knew how to look at coins could compare the coin to the photograph and be 100% certain if it was the same piece or not.

 

The problem was that too many people were buying coins that did not know anything about coins. That was why plastic was invented, for them.

[yonico]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

 

Not true. Anybody who knew how to look at coins could compare the coin to the photograph and be 100% certain if it was the same piece or not.

 

The problem was that too many people were buying coins that did not know anything about coins. That was why plastic was invented, for them.

 

besides what CONDER101 said some dealers did (and i saw this happen myself), i would ask again what do you do to prevent the coin from toning, getting environmentally damaged, hit, scratched, ding and bang AFTER IT WAS CERTIFIED from being stored in a soft plastic flip instead of a SEALED plastic slab?

and again, if you think the plastic was invented for people who knew nothing about coins, then explain please why the ANACS photo-cert was invented..? how is it different than the plastic slab, besides the material used to seal the coin? if people knew all about coins, the ANACS service would have not be needed at all

 

[yonico]

I have several gold coins with the ANACS certificates. The photos on the certificates are extremely high resolution and any microscopic tic marks on the coin should match up perfectly on the pics.

 

maybe all the marks that were there at the time of certification. not the new ones from banging against the dealer's showcase now and then

[CaptHenway]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

 

Not true. Anybody who knew how to look at coins could compare the coin to the photograph and be 100% certain if it was the same piece or not.

 

The problem was that too many people were buying coins that did not know anything about coins. That was why plastic was invented, for them.

 

besides what CONDER101 said some dealers did (and i saw this happen myself), i would ask again what do you do to prevent the coin from toning, getting environmentally damaged, hit, scratched, ding and bang AFTER IT WAS CERTIFIED from being stored in a soft plastic flip instead of a SEALED plastic slab?

and again, if you think the plastic was invented for people who knew nothing about coins, then explain please why the ANACS photo-cert was invented..? how is it different than the plastic slab, besides the material used to seal the coin? if people knew all about coins, the ANACS service would have not be needed at all

 

The soft plastic flip was used to simplify handling while in house, and to protect the coin while it was being returned. It was never intended for long term storage. We even put a notice with the coin telling people that the flip was not intended for long term storage.

 

There were many products available to numismatists to safely store their coins in back then, such as Capital Plastic holders and KoinTains. We did not feel that we had to hold the collectors' hands.

[yonico]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

 

Not true. Anybody who knew how to look at coins could compare the coin to the photograph and be 100% certain if it was the same piece or not.

 

The problem was that too many people were buying coins that did not know anything about coins. That was why plastic was invented, for them.

 

besides what CONDER101 said some dealers did (and i saw this happen myself), i would ask again what do you do to prevent the coin from toning, getting environmentally damaged, hit, scratched, ding and bang AFTER IT WAS CERTIFIED from being stored in a soft plastic flip instead of a SEALED plastic slab?

and again, if you think the plastic was invented for people who knew nothing about coins, then explain please why the ANACS photo-cert was invented..? how is it different than the plastic slab, besides the material used to seal the coin? if people knew all about coins, the ANACS service would have not be needed at all

 

The soft plastic flip was used to simplify handling while in house, and to protect the coin while it was being returned. It was never intended for long term storage. We even put a notice with the coin telling people that the flip was not intended for long term storage.

There were many products available to numismatists to safely store their coins in back then, such as Capital Plastic holders and KoinTains. We did not feel that we had to hold the collectors' hands.

 

ok. fair enough. i understand. i guess people didn't really take this advice, as most coins that i see are still stapled to the certificate in the plastic flip.

 

i just still don't understand why you said that plastic slabs were invented for people who knew nothing about coins (and needed a TPG to tell them), when that's exactly what ANACS did, only they put the coin in a flip rather than a plastic case..

was this ANACS service of certification invented for people who were buying coins and didn't know anything about them?

[nk1nk]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

 

Not true. Anybody who knew how to look at coins could compare the coin to the photograph and be 100% certain if it was the same piece or not.

 

The problem was that too many people were buying coins that did not know anything about coins. That was why plastic was invented, for them.

 

besides what CONDER101 said some dealers did (and i saw this happen myself), i would ask again what do you do to prevent the coin from toning, getting environmentally damaged, hit, scratched, ding and bang AFTER IT WAS CERTIFIED from being stored in a soft plastic flip instead of a SEALED plastic slab?

and again, if you think the plastic was invented for people who knew nothing about coins, then explain please why the ANACS photo-cert was invented..? how is it different than the plastic slab, besides the material used to seal the coin? if people knew all about coins, the ANACS service would have not be needed at all

 

The soft plastic flip was used to simplify handling while in house, and to protect the coin while it was being returned. It was never intended for long term storage. We even put a notice with the coin telling people that the flip was not intended for long term storage.

There were many products available to numismatists to safely store their coins in back then, such as Capital Plastic holders and KoinTains. We did not feel that we had to hold the collectors' hands.

 

ok. fair enough. i understand. i guess people didn't really take this advice, as most coins that i see are still stapled to the certificate in the plastic flip.

 

i just still don't understand why you said that plastic slabs were invented for people who knew nothing about coins (and needed a TPG to tell them), when that's exactly what ANACS did, only they put the coin in a flip rather than a plastic case..

was this ANACS service of certification invented for people who were buying coins and didn't know anything about them?

 

I believe ANACS purpose was to level the playing field. i.e. I bring a coin to a dealer to sell that I think is an MS65 and he tells me, nope im a professional and thats an MS62 at best. ANACS offered a sevice that really benefited the average collector in these types of situations and granted it was not perfect and that is exactly why it evolved from what it was.

 

And as a side the photo's are very good and the coin I have is no question the same coin, in fact I noticed minor ticks on the photo that I had to take a second look to find on the coin.

 

Nick

[e1cnr]

ANACS originally started as an authentication service

 

 

I have seen a few proof coins, that even with the high def pictures, I was not 100% sure

[RJP]

ANACS originally started as an authentication service

 

That correct, 1972 thru 1989 or so, ANA/ANACS Did authentication, due to all the counterfeits on the market.

Grading started March 1, 1978 thru the sale of ANACS to AMOS Press, because collectors’ wanted that service.

 

 

[RJP]

If anyone would like a copy of the "Report on ANACS Coins' I have them, scanned and can email a copy to you for easier reading>

I only have two of these reports, Not sure how I got them but I am glad I found them. June '83 and Aug '83.

 

[CaptHenway]

ANACS originally started as an authentication service

 

That correct, 1972 thru 1989 or so, ANA/ANACS Did authentication, due to all the counterfeits on the market.

Grading started March 1, 1978 thru the sale of ANACS to AMOS Press, because collectors’ wanted that service.

 

 

ANACS did authentication from its founding in 1972 until the ANA sold ANACS to Amos Press in 1989 (I believe that is correct.)

 

ANACS added grading on March 1, 1979 (not 1978). It was envisioned as a sort of arbitrtation service whereby people who bought a coin they were unhappy with could get a second opinion. The Board of Governors did not foresee that people would want their coins to be graded prior to the sale.

[coinman_23885]

The problem with this photo certs is how easy it is to switch the coin out (ANACS' pics aren't high-def enough to compare to the coin).

even worse, the coin can be taken out of the flip and get scratched/hit/marked in some way before it's put into the generic holder with the certificate..

i like the sealed slabs better..

 

Not true. Anybody who knew how to look at coins could compare the coin to the photograph and be 100% certain if it was the same piece or not.

 

The problem was that too many people were buying coins that did not know anything about coins. That was why plastic was invented, for them.

 

I agree with the first part. With regards to the second part, there is enormous truth in that statement, but the plastic also helps prevent damage and better protects the coins from further change. I think it was a little of both that lead to the advent of slabs.

[coinman_23885]

Those were privately packaged. We just returned the coin in a flip with a photo certificate.

TD

 

You were a grader for ANACS?

[CaptHenway]

Those were privately packaged. We just returned the coin in a flip with a photo certificate.

TD

 

You were a grader for ANACS?

 

I was hired in November of 1978 to start the grading branch of ANACS. We opened for business in 1979.

[RJP]

I

ANACS originally started as an authentication service

 

That correct, 1972 thru 1989 or so, ANA/ANACS Did authentication, due to all the counterfeits on the market.

Grading started March 1, 1978 thru the sale of ANACS to AMOS Press, because collectors wanted that service.

 

 

ANACS did authentication from its founding in 1972 until the ANA sold ANACS to Amos Press in 1989 (I believe that is correct.)

 

ANACS added grading on March 1, 1979 (not 1978). It was envisioned as a sort of arbitrtation service whereby people who bought a coin they were unhappy with could get a second opinion. The Board of Governors did not foresee that people would want their coins to be graded prior to the sale.

 

your correct

I put the wrong year in.

Sorry about that.

[coinman_23885]

It was envisioned as a sort of arbitrtation service whereby people who bought a coin they were unhappy with could get a second opinion. The Board of Governors did not foresee that people would want their coins to be graded prior to the sale.

 

You definitely would know, but I am really surprised that the board did not foresee this possibility and the utility of using their service prior to a sale. I have learned a lot about old ANACS from this thread - it's interesting for sure.

[CaptHenway]

When IBM invented the computer, they estimated the long-term market demand for them at five units. Of course, this was when the device took up a whole room, and the air conditioning equipment required to cool the vacuum tubes took up another room. Then somebody invented the transistor......

[Conder101]

ok. fair enough. i understand. i guess people didn't really take this advice, as most coins that i see are still stapled to the certificate in the plastic flip.

They never do. Until a few years ago when the auction houses started selling almost everything slabbed only the raw coins would be in PVC flips with plasticizer for ease of handing at the lot viewing. These would also come with notes that they were not suitable for long term storage but believe ne there are still a LOT of coins out there that have been in collections twenty, thirty years or more that are still in the flips from their old auction sales.

[Raisethis2]

I recall having just begun collecting in the early 1980's when ANACS grading was a very new thing and somewhat unknown to the average collector. It's really kind of a shame that today at sale coins in ANACS holders (regardless of generation) get the bums rush when it comes to commanding the right money.

 

I rarely find coins in these holders where I disagree with the assigned grade. For my 2 cents the graders then, and now do admirable work.