PCGS vs.NGC grades

[Hard Times]

Folks,

I hear all the time that PCGS will grade overall stricter/conservative or however one wants to name it than NGC, so therefore PCGS coins in a given grade sell for more.

 

Here is a link to a posting of Bust Halves where they were originally in NGC slabs (one ANACS) and now with new grades in PCGS slabs. Thought this was interesting and I apologize for a link ATS but there it is.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=894257

 

Best, HT

[KeyMan64]

I think the statement is generally true...but in this case I think it has to do with buying the coins and not the holder and giving a little credit to the grading ability of the owner. Every TPG makes mistakes and every series is also DIFFERENT. There are some series where NGC is more strict, I think some having to do with designations.

 

If you want an EXTREME example of strict grading just take a look at THIS.

1945-S Mercury Dime in MS68

NGC Population Has 359 with THREE Finer

PCGS Population Has 1 with ZERO Finer

Total CAC examples are only 9

 

This is strict grading without a doubt!!! How much do you think a typical NGC MS68 example sells for in comparison to the 1 PCGS example that exists?

[jom]

This is strict grading without a doubt!!! How much do you think do you think a typical NGC MS68 example sells for in comparison to the 1 PCGS example that exists?

 

That would depend how much nicer the PCGS example is than any of the NGC coins. It's too bad we can't do a side-by-side comparison.

 

Also, just because a grading company is more strict doesn't mean it is "better". It's FAR more important that the service is consistent with whatever grading standards they have. A useless TPG is one who can't grade the same way for at least most of the time....

 

jom

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

Just another example of TPG census, I just was looking at a MS66 FBL Franklin on Heritage Auction. They show ATS certifying 98 and NGC 1.

[e1cnr]

they both grade series differently

 

for fbl on franklins- PCGS just requires the bottom, NGC requires the bottom and middle, making that designation much harder to get on NGC

 

 

so yes, you need to see the coin - and can use a 'generalization' for a specific series - but there also is a 'promotion' and 'registry' effect which makes some plastic more valuable than others at times.

[KeyMan64]

This is strict grading without a doubt!!! How much do you think a typical NGC MS68 example sells for in comparison to the 1 PCGS example that exists?

 

That would depend how much nicer the PCGS example is than any of the NGC coins. It's too bad we can't do a side-by-side comparison.

 

Also, just because a grading company is more strict doesn't mean it is "better". It's FAR more important that the service is consistent with whatever grading standards they have. A useless TPG is one who can't grade the same way for at least most of the time....

 

jom

As for your first statement, I highly doubt that. Not that I agree necessarily, but I do doubt it. Have you ever heard of the Registry Set Competition?...any idea what premium a single Stand Alone Top Pop 1/0 Mercury Dime might carry with it? I don't agree with the practice but there are people out there that might even be willing to bid on the coin blind.

 

As for your second statement about "BETTER", I never said anything about that. I never claimed one was better. I just presented some information as I saw it.

 

[Keigwin]

Exactly. It isn't a matter of strictness. The two companies have different grading standards.

 

In fairness it probably should be noted that the poster ATS included this comment: "Of course, I also have a fair share of NGC coins that may or may not cross at grade. I picked the above coins specifically because I thought they had a great shot. When you have a 100 coins to choose from, there certainly will be some winners."

Lance.

[LogPotato]

All TPG's have over-graded. All have under-graded. All have let dogs into their holders.

 

It's cliche, but "buy the coin" actually matters.

[$ilverHawk]

I think the statement is generally true...but in this case I think it has to do with buying the coins and not the holder and giving a little credit to the grading ability of the owner. Every TPG makes mistakes and every series is also DIFFERENT. There are some series where NGC is more strict, I think some having to do with designations.

 

If you want an EXTREME example of strict grading just take a look at THIS.

1945-S Mercury Dime in MS68

NGC Population Has 359 with THREE Finer

PCGS Population Has 1 with ZERO Finer

Total CAC examples are only 9

 

This is strict grading without a doubt!!! How much do you think a typical NGC MS68 example sells for in comparison to the 1 PCGS example that exists?

 

Interesting segue from the OPs post, particularly the designations comment. Kudos to the submitter for having a grading ability equal to all the TPGs involved in this example. Addressing your 1945-S Mercury Dime example, do you have any data regarding the number of submissions to either service? Perhaps NGC has experienced more high grade 1945-S Mercury Dime submissions than PCGS? What data do you have comparing the sales price of the lone PCGS graded 1945-S Mercury Dime with the sales prices of the same NGC coin? I would expect the singular PCGS example to bring pricing multiples over NGC examples based on Registry Fever.

 

Granted, the population differences make me wonder, but the data you present does not lead to any correct assumption regarding stricter grading.

 

I would rather have examples of correct grading than extreme strict grading. That goes for both services.

 

BTW here's my 1808/7. I'm of the opinion that it's a 45 by both services. More to the point, I purchased this coin as a solid 45.

 

 

Carl

[orifdoc]

With each grading service having seen 25 million-ish coins, it's not all that hard to pick out a few examples here and there of some lousy grades from both companies. So what? That proves nothing! Anecdotal data is next to meaningless. Grades are just opinions and a large part of it is subjective. Those assigned by PCGS and NGC tend to be pretty darn consistent, especially when compared to the other other currently available options.

 

If you really want to make comparisons, look at what coin prices are doing in auctions, on the bourse, and on Internet sites. The free market speaks.

[jom]

This is strict grading without a doubt!!! How much do you think a typical NGC MS68 example sells for in comparison to the 1 PCGS example that exists?

 

That would depend how much nicer the PCGS example is than any of the NGC coins. It's too bad we can't do a side-by-side comparison.

 

Also, just because a grading company is more strict doesn't mean it is "better". It's FAR more important that the service is consistent with whatever grading standards they have. A useless TPG is one who can't grade the same way for at least most of the time....

 

jom

As for your first statement, I highly doubt that. Not that I agree necessarily, but I do doubt it. Have you ever heard of the Registry Set Competition?...any idea what premium a single Stand Alone Top Pop 1/0 Mercury Dime might carry with it? I don't agree with the practice but there are people out there that might even be willing to bid on the coin blind.

 

Probably...but to me the coin that is nice should be worth more. It's possible that the lone PCGS MS68 is better than ALL of the NGC coins. But...really...who knows unless you see them. But, yeah, I know that the Registry drives the market in those instances.

 

As for your second statement about "BETTER", I never said anything about that. I never claimed one was better. I just presented some information as I saw it.

 

I never said you did...I was just pointing that out but not in response to anything you said.

 

jom

[Kurtdog]

Folks,

I hear all the time that PCGS will grade overall stricter/conservative or however one wants to name it than NGC, so therefore PCGS coins in a given grade sell for more.

 

Here is a link to a posting of Bust Halves where they were originally in NGC slabs (one ANACS) and now with new grades in PCGS slabs. Thought this was interesting and I apologize for a link ATS but there it is.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=894257

 

Best, HT

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

[coinman_23885]

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

 

The sniffer doesn't grade coins per se. Rather, it works with a physical chemical technique known as mass spectrometry to identify surface contaminants. This could be helpful in detecting doctored coins by allowing them to identify the contents of the coin's surface, but it doesn't give them a numerical grade.

 

Edited to add: Actually the sniffer goes beyond the simple technique I suggested, but the end result and my point still are the same. According to PCGS the sniffer utilizes "energy dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other similar analytical techniques.”

[Keigwin]

Folks,

I hear all the time that PCGS will grade overall stricter/conservative or however one wants to name it than NGC, so therefore PCGS coins in a given grade sell for more.

 

Here is a link to a posting of Bust Halves where they were originally in NGC slabs (one ANACS) and now with new grades in PCGS slabs. Thought this was interesting and I apologize for a link ATS but there it is.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=894257

 

Best, HT

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

. That is priceless.

 

Their machines have nothing to do with grading. Secure Plus does a finger print scan for documentation purposes. The Sniffer ID's foreign substances PCGS considers taboo. Grading is always done by humans, not machines.

 

Really, if you're going to criticize, at least know the facts.

Lance.

[$ilverHawk]

Folks,

I hear all the time that PCGS will grade overall stricter/conservative or however one wants to name it than NGC, so therefore PCGS coins in a given grade sell for more.

 

Here is a link to a posting of Bust Halves where they were originally in NGC slabs (one ANACS) and now with new grades in PCGS slabs. Thought this was interesting and I apologize for a link ATS but there it is.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=894257

 

Best, HT

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

. That is priceless.

 

Their machines have nothing to do with grading. Secure Plus does a finger print scan for documentation purposes. The Sniffer ID's foreign substances PCGS considers taboo. Grading is always done by humans, not machines.

 

Really, if you're going to criticize, at least know the facts.

Lance.

 

(thumbs u

 

 

[Kurtdog]

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

The sniffer doesn't grade coins per se. Rather, it works with a physical chemical technique known as mass spectrometry to identify surface contaminants. This could be helpful in detecting doctored coins by allowing them to identify the contents of the coin's surface, but it doesn't give them a numerical grade.

 

Edited to add: Actually the sniffer goes beyond the simple technique I suggested, but the end result and my point still are the same. According to PCGS the sniffer utilizes "energy dispersive X-ray spectrometry (EDX), Fournier Transform Infra-Red Spectral analysis (FT-IR), Raman Spectroscopy and other similar analytical techniques.”

Oooh, I'm impressed! Well, not really...

[Kurtdog]

Folks,

I hear all the time that PCGS will grade overall stricter/conservative or however one wants to name it than NGC, so therefore PCGS coins in a given grade sell for more.

 

Here is a link to a posting of Bust Halves where they were originally in NGC slabs (one ANACS) and now with new grades in PCGS slabs. Thought this was interesting and I apologize for a link ATS but there it is.

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=894257

 

Best, HT

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

. That is priceless.

 

Their machines have nothing to do with grading. Secure Plus does a finger print scan for documentation purposes. The Sniffer ID's foreign substances PCGS considers taboo. Grading is always done by humans, not machines.

 

Really, if you're going to criticize, at least know the facts.

Lance.

Oh, get with it. It's the difference between a grade and a no-grade. That's grading.

[coinman_23885]

I'll let you in on a little secret. PCGS doesn't know what the hell they're doing from one coin to the next. I think they need more machines to tell them how to grade. Now take that coin-sniffer...

. That is priceless.

 

Their machines have nothing to do with grading. Secure Plus does a finger print scan for documentation purposes. The Sniffer ID's foreign substances PCGS considers taboo. Grading is always done by humans, not machines.

 

Really, if you're going to criticize, at least know the facts.

Lance.

Oh, get with it. It's the difference between a grade and a no-grade. That's grading.

 

No it's not. It's screening coins that will ultimately be graded.

[Red Llama]

I think overall PCGS is 'harder' but I think NGC can be more 'stingy' on certain things than PCGS. I only submit to PCGS now but going purely on anecdotal evidence NGC is harder in getting like FSB in Mercury dimes BUT they are more generous in their grading. I'm speaking on a limited basis but I have crossed a NGC coin that came back MS66 and sent it to PCGS and it came back 65 FSB and I have a few more than I am sure are FSB but NGC did not give me it.

 

I'n curious to hear if there are any others that have good background submitting to both if you have noticed any differences.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

I think overall PCGS is 'harder' but I think NGC can be more 'stingy' on certain things than PCGS. I only submit to PCGS now but going purely on anecdotal evidence NGC is harder in getting like FSB in Mercury dimes BUT they are more generous in their grading. I'm speaking on a limited basis but I have crossed a NGC coin that came back MS66 and sent it to PCGS and it came back 65 FSB and I have a few more than I am sure are FSB but NGC did not give me it.

 

I'n curious to hear if there are any others that have good background submitting to both if you have noticed any differences.

 

 

There are differences in some series, but I think it is erroneous to extrapolate that PCGS is universally more strict than NGC or vice versa. The standards vary by series, and there are some things that the services do tend to evaluate differently (compare the notes about luster, toning, strike designations, etc.). There are also fewer differences at lower grades than at the very top of the scale.

[Red Llama]

Kenny-I agree. I would say that I think overall PCGS is a tad more strict but I was pointing out an area where I think NGC is a tad more strict. I would cation from making this conversation so simple but the OP asked a good question.

 

I would also agree that a lot of this is perception and NGC and PCGS are much 'closer' than people think.

[jom]

I still maintain it's not important who is more strict but who is most consistent with the standards they set. For years, I always thought that was NGC even though in many cases they may not have been the most conservative. Now I'm not certain as the market seems to value PCGS coins more (in general) so many NGC will get cracked and sent to PCGS....hence you won't see the coin as graded by NGC any longer....

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

I still maintain it's not important who is more strict but who is most consistent with the standards they set. For years, I always thought that was NGC even though in many cases they may not have been the most conservative. Now I'm not certain as the market seems to value PCGS coins more (in general) so many NGC will get cracked and sent to PCGS....hence you won't see the coin as graded by NGC any longer....

 

jom

 

I don't disagree with you at all. Consistency is the most important for me as well. As long as one understands the differences (if any) for a particular series, then one can can easily compare the two different brands of plastic for the most quality per dollar, for instance. This of course assumes that collectors actually look past the plastic and label (and maybe sticker) and look at the coin itself - something some, especially less experienced collections, are resistant to doing for some reason.

[Red Llama]

Only a handful of people actually follow the mantra of "Look at the coin, not the holder". In all fairness it is hard (Even for hardcore collectors) to look past that plastic and see the coin as the coin itself and not as a number.

 

Right now the perception is PCGS is 'harder' and so people seem to believe that you just HAVE to get coins from them.

 

I was just pointing out that is not really the case and there are areas where NGC is 'harder' than PCGS. I should of noted I think that these differences are minor and sometimes people take them out of proportion. If you average them out PCGS and NGC are very close to one another in terms of grading.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Hard Times]

These posts are excellent feedback to my initial comment and thanks all. What one learns as one goes on in studying numismatics is that a grade on the slab is just the starting point for evaluation and value. I guess I get irked by the attitude of some ATS that are drinking the kool aid. Someone over there said yesterday that he had seen too many get 'burned by buying NGC coins' and that one should buy only PCGS coins. Wow how short sighted is that? First I did not know NGC and PCGS made coins, second, to ignore nearly half of the TPG graded coins available by blind faith is simply foolish. Learning how to evaluate a specimen independently of the starting point grade on a slab is what the dialogue should have been about over there, but again too many kool aid drinkers. PCGS must love that.

 

Best, HT

[jpcienkus]

These is excellent feedback to my initial comment and thanks all. What one learns as one goes on in studying numismatics is that a grade on the slab is just the starting point for evaluation and value. I guess I get irked by the attitude of some ATS that are drinking the kool aid. Someone over there said yesterday that he had seen too many get 'burned by buying NGC coins' and that one should buy only PCGS coins. Wow how short sighted is that? First I did not know NGC and PCGS made coins, second, to ignore nearly half of the TPG graded coins available by blind faith is simply foolish. Learning how to evaluate a specimen independently of the starting point grade on a slab is what the dialogue should have been about over there, but again too many kool aid drinkers. PCGS must love that.

 

Best, HT

 

I have been a collector for less than a year and just shake my head when I hear comments like that from ATS. I wonder what his thought patterns are for the rest of his world. Maybe the guy got burned because he was buying the label vs. buying the coin. I have viewed a lot of coins where I thought the coin didn't deserve the grade. I haven't kept count, but it's likely split evenly between the two big TPG's.

 

Disclaimer: I own plenty of coins in both holders.

 

 

[jom]

....This of course assumes that collectors actually look past the plastic and label (and maybe sticker) and look at the coin itself - something some, especially less experienced collections, are resistant to doing for some reason.

 

Agreed....see below

 

Only a handful of people actually follow the mantra of "Look at the coin, not the holder". In all fairness it is hard (Even for hardcore collectors) to look past that plastic and see the coin as the coin itself and not as a number.

 

I think it's more or less some sort of built-in lack of confidence. I see a coin graded and I usually think to myself "how can I grade this differently than the TPG? What makes me so special that I can 2nd guess an expert?". You then hesitate to make your own evaluation and end up going with the label. I'm sure it happens a lot.

 

...Someone over there said yesterday that he had seen too many get 'burned by buying NGC coins' and that one should buy only PCGS coins. Wow how short sighted is that? First I did not know NGC and PCGS made coins, second, to ignore nearly half of the TPG graded coins available by blind faith is simply foolish. Learning how to evaluate a specimen independently of the starting point grade on a slab is what the dialogue should have been about over there, but again too many kool aid drinkers. PCGS must love that.

 

First of all at the comment about NGC making coins. I always think that when someone says "...NGC coins" or "...PCGS coins". Like the TPGs has some sort of die sinking facility in the back rooms.

 

Yes, the BEST way to try to handle the grading is using the label as a starting point. Actually, my starting point is "do I like it?". Then I see the grade and I can tell roughly whether it will be in my price range. Then I try to grade the coin to see if the TPG did OK with it. Then comes...for me...the hard part. How do I VALUE the coin? That is very difficult for me as I have this habit of gravitating toward toned coins that often carry a premium. So I just can't stick with gray sheet bid...I'd never purchase a coin if I did. So you have to evaluate the cost vs. what you have seen of other coins in the same series. Is it hard to find? Rare? etc etc. Grade is just a starting point but what is important at the end of the day is the amount you write on your check to the seller.

 

jom

 

[Hard Times]

First of all at the comment about NGC making coins. I always think that when someone says "...NGC coins" or "...PCGS coins". Like the TPGs has some sort of die sinking facility in the back rooms.

 

Yes, the BEST way to try to handle the grading is using the label as a starting point. Actually, my starting point is "do I like it?". Then I see the grade and I can tell roughly whether it will be in my price range. Then I try to grade the coin to see if the TPG did OK with it. Then comes...for me...the hard part. How do I VALUE the coin? That is very difficult for me as I have this habit of gravitating toward toned coins that often carry a premium. So I just can't stick with gray sheet bid...I'd never purchase a coin if I did. So you have to evaluate the cost vs. what you have seen of other coins in the same series. Is it hard to find? Rare? etc etc. Grade is just a starting point but what is important at the end of the day is the amount you write on your check to the seller.

 

jom

 

Jom,

 

Your approach is exactly right IMO. Don't matter what surrounds the coin, the evaluation has to go beyond that and should not be limited to 'PCGS Coins".....

 

Best, HT