This is why CAC impresses me

[FishyOne]

All members of LSCC get 10 free submissions to CAC! Now get this, CAC offered their members free memberships to LSCC each of the last 2 years as a Christmas gift! It's a win-win!

 

For those of you interested in CAC but not currently members? I suggest joining LSCC now.

 

[Elbesaar]

 

I recently was able to join CAC - and I have been slowly sending coin in for

their inspection. I look forward to being invited to join the LSCC - as I have a

fair amount of Seated material that should be reviewed.

 

Of course, I wouldn't mind one iota if they extended that offer to BCCS !!

 

[mkman123]

What's lscc?

[FishyOne]

What's lscc?

 

Liberty Seated Collectors Club

 

If interested you can join here: LSCC

[$ilverHawk]

Very astute marketing. It appears that CAC is attempting to make marketing inroads towards broader acceptance in the collecting community.

 

Wouldn't surprise me at all if other specialized market segments were gradually phased in with the same "generosity". Keeping in mind that CAC makes a market in all coins that are stickered, this is simply an advertisement for the masses to submit their coins for CAC approval.

 

Hey, to each their own. If a green or gold bean floats your boat, go for it. If you are satisfied with your grading ability and don't need a TPG or CAC to verify what you already know, go for it.

 

Carl

[FishyOne]

I have three reasons for submitting coins to CAC:

 

1. Increased Resale Value (primary)

2. Enjoyment (secondary)

3. Learning/Education (tertiary)

 

I like to see if my coins sticker so I can generate higher resale value and learn a bit about grading along the way.

[jom]

I have three reasons for submitting coins to CAC:

 

1. Increased Resale Value (primary)

2. Enjoyment (secondary)

3. Learning/Education (tertiary)

 

I like to see if my coins sticker so I can generate higher resale value and learn a bit about grading along the way.

 

While I agree with your list the order is different for me:

 

1. Leaning/Education

2. Resale

 

I'm not sure where there is direct enjoyment in sending coins to CAC but I could list that as part of #1 though.

 

jom

[gmarguli]

I have three reasons for submitting coins to CAC:

 

1. Increased Resale Value (primary)

2. Enjoyment (secondary)

3. Learning/Education (tertiary)

 

I like to see if my coins sticker so I can generate higher resale value and learn a bit about grading along the way.

 

While I agree with your list the order is different for me:

 

1. Leaning/Education

2. Resale

 

I'm not sure where there is direct enjoyment in sending coins to CAC but I could list that as part of #1 though.

 

jom

 

Mine are slightly different.

 

1. Raging Insecurity. Helps me ignore my lack of security in my knowledge of what I am spending my hard earned money on.

 

2. Promoting Cluelessness. The more people rely on others, the more helpless they become.

 

3. Unnecessary Vanity. WooHoo my coin got a bean. It's better than your non-beaned coin.

 

These are well worth the cost of sending my coins to a dealer to see if he'd like to buy them. (thumbs u

[EVillageProwler]

Greg,

 

Your perspective is from someone who went through the learning curve before there was CAC. Just think of the time when PCGS and NGC weren't as firmly established as they are now; remember all the arguments about over-dependence on the slab? Those arguments still persist in the Dark Side arena.

 

And, remember when folks learned how to do simple and complicated mathematics using an abacus or even paper and pencil? Well, let's all stop using our computers and electronic gadgets.

 

Your arguments for or against CAC should not have contained emotional points. Just stick with points about whether the tool (or service) can add value and in what way.

 

 

EVP

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Greg,

 

Your perspective is from someone who went through the learning curve before there was CAC. Just think of the time when PCGS and NGC weren't as firmly established as they are now; remember all the arguments about over-dependence on the slab? Those arguments still persist in the Dark Side arena.

 

And, remember when folks learned how to do simple and complicated mathematics using an abacus or even paper and pencil? Well, let's all stop using our computers and electronic gadgets.

 

Your arguments for or against CAC should not have contained emotional points. Just stick with points about whether the tool (or service) can add value and in what way.

 

 

EVP

 

So, your sort of saying CAC is a Tool

 

I wonder; why isn't an emotional approach valid?

Is Marketing an emotional approach?

Is questioning an opinion (not a fact) an emotional approach?

But what do I know?

[gmarguli]

Just think of the time when PCGS and NGC weren't as firmly established as they are now; remember all the arguments about over-dependence on the slab?

 

And they proved to be true. The dumbing down of people in this hobby is amazing. Most people don't see it as they weren;t around pre-slabs. However, I am all for slabs as they have done a lot more good than harm overall.

 

 

And, remember when folks learned how to do simple and complicated mathematics using an abacus or even paper and pencil? Well, let's all stop using our computers and electronic gadgets.

 

Not a good analogy. The computer is a much better (faster and more accurate) way of coming to a answer that only has one correct outcome. A sticker is just a second opinion about the opinion of another company. How many opinions do we need?

[FishyOne]

...The dumbing down of people in this hobby is amazing...

 

Care to elaborate? My IQ has been tested in the top 2% of the population and I possess a Master's degree Magna Laude from a major university.

 

Do tell about how dumbed down this hobby is...............

[EVillageProwler]

Fishy,

 

You shouldn't take Greg's comments personally. He's making a generalization, and he's both correct and incorrect.

 

Society and their industries advance. With that advancement comes some subtraction here and addition there. That's what he's saying about TPG's, but not about CAC. I guess in the opinion-giving industry, he's ok with N but not N+1. Seems arbitrary to me, and he doesn't even offer the veneer of analysis to support N > N+1.

 

I've no clue if CAC has real sustainability. I misplaced my crystal ball. However, I'd like to see the pundits on both sides of the opinion spectrum offer some real analysis.

 

EVP

[BillJones]

...The dumbing down of people in this hobby is amazing...

 

Care to elaborate? My IQ has been tested in the top 2% of the population and I possess a Master's degree Magna Laude from a major university.

 

Do tell about how dumbed down this hobby is...............

 

Sadly there are a bunch of collectors and speculators who are like Pavlov's dogs. All they to see is the PCGS and CAC combination and they buy (salivate). The NGC - CAC combination does nothing for them and heaven forbid if ANYONE was ever dumb enough to buy a coin in an NGC holder with no CAC endorsement. Even a PCGS holder without a CAC sticker is suspect.

 

That's what we mean by "dumbing down." You can have a PhD from an Ivy League school with an IQ of 180, but if PCGS + CAC is the sole criterion for you numismatic purchases, you are "dumbed down" numismatic perspective so far as I'm concerned. A number of people ATS think I'm a dinosaur because I buy both NGC and PCGS grading coins and never try to cross anything to the "promised land " of PCGS holders.

 

[BillJones]

I've no clue if CAC has real sustainability. I misplaced my crystal ball. However, I'd like to see the pundits on both sides of the opinion spectrum offer some real analysis.

 

I only make to two or three major auctions a year at which I get to go through the boxes. When I'm running though the boxes I'll run into coins with the PCGS + CAC combination. Most of the time, the coins range from okay to exceptional for the grade, but now and I'll run into a holder, where I'll shake my head, and say to myself, "How the heck did this happen?" The endorsement just makes no sense. This is the issue that some of us have with CAC. It's not perfect and yet so many put it up on a pedestal and resent anyone who points out its imperfections.

 

In many ways the CAC function is a lot easier to perform than the grading function. It's like a dealer or collector going through a box of slabs and picking out the coins that he likes for the grade. You can say "Okay" (green label), "WOW!!" (gold label) or pass (no label). That's a lot easier than having to start from scratch with a raw coin and determining if it is genuine, has been altered and then assigning a grade to it.

 

It is for this reason that I would expect more consistency from CAC. They don't have endorse something if they don't want to do it. The grading services are obliged to assign a technical grade to an undamaged coin with esthetic issues. CAC is not. That makes their job easier.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

I've no clue if CAC has real sustainability. I misplaced my crystal ball. However, I'd like to see the pundits on both sides of the opinion spectrum offer some real analysis.

 

I only make to two or three major auctions a year at which I get to go through the boxes. When I'm running though the boxes I'll run into coins with the PCGS + CAC combination. Most of the time, the coins range from okay to exceptional for the grade, but now and I'll run into a holder, where I'll shake my head, and say to myself, "How the heck to this happen?" The endorsement just makes no sense. This is the issue that some of us have with CAC. It's not perfect and yet so many put it up on a pedestal and resent anyone who points out its imperfections.

 

In many ways the CAC function is a lot easier to perform than the grading function. It's like a dealer or collector going through a box of slabs and picking out the coins that he likes for the grade. You can say "Okay" (green label), "WOW!!" (gold label) or pass (no label). That's a lot easier than having to start from scratch with a raw coin and determining if it is genuine, has been altered and then assigning a grade to it.

 

It is for this reason that I would expect more consistency from CAC. They don't have endorse something if they don't want to do it. The grading services are obliged to assign a technical grade to an undamaged coin with esthetic issues. CAC is not. That makes their job easier.

 

I too have been to major auction lot viewings and I too shake my head rather regularly at TPG graded coins and wonder what they were thinking. CAC doesn't have to be perfect (who is?) - t hey just have to be better than the TPGs at weeding out all the mistakes. And JA is very aggressive about taking any mistakes CAC might make off the marketplace quickly - not so much for the TPGs.

 

And even us ardent CAC supporters buy non stickered coins and NGC stickered coins. In the past year I have done both to the tune of $1.5M

[Coinbuf]

...The dumbing down of people in this hobby is amazing...

 

Care to elaborate? My IQ has been tested in the top 2% of the population and I possess a Master's degree Magna Laude from a major university.

 

Do tell about how dumbed down this hobby is...............

 

Sadly there are a bunch of collectors and speculators who are like Pavlov's dogs. All they to see is the PCGS and CAC combination and they buy (salivate). The NGC - CAC combination does nothing for them and heaven forbid if ANYONE was ever dumb enough to buy a coin in an NGC holder with no CAC endorsement. Even a PCGS holder without a CAC sticker is suspect.

 

That's what we mean by "dumbing down." You can have a PhD from an Ivy League school with an IQ of 180, but if PCGS + CAC is the sole criterion for you numismatic purchases, you are "dumbed down" numismatic perspective so far as I'm concerned. A number of people ATS think I'm a dinosaur because I buy both NGC and PCGS grading coins and never try to cross anything to the "promised land " of PCGS holders.

 

Excellent post and I think many can agree with this. As to the attitudes ATS I think that so much of that comes from the makeup of the membership. Imo most of the posting members there are dealers and brown nosers, I see very few actual collectors that post there anymore. And forget about speaking your opinion there, thay only want yes men on that site.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, I was not a CAC supporter at first but after learning more about CAC I have come to a better understanding of its plus's and now see the company as an asset overall.

[FishyOne]

Fishy,

 

You shouldn't take Greg's comments personally. He's making a generalization, and he's both correct and incorrect.

 

Society and their industries advance. With that advancement comes some subtraction here and addition there. That's what he's saying about TPG's, but not about CAC. I guess in the opinion-giving industry, he's ok with N but not N+1. Seems arbitrary to me, and he doesn't even offer the veneer of analysis to support N > N+1.

 

I've no clue if CAC has real sustainability. I misplaced my crystal ball. However, I'd like to see the pundits on both sides of the opinion spectrum offer some real analysis.

 

EVP

 

Understood. I can see why some disparage CAC but if I was buying 5 figure coins these days? I'd use all the tools at my disposal. It's not always about money but nobody's ever going to mistake me for Warren Buffet either.

[Hard Times]

Just think of the time when PCGS and NGC weren't as firmly established as they are now; remember all the arguments about over-dependence on the slab?

 

And they proved to be true. The dumbing down of people in this hobby is amazing. Most people don't see it as they weren;t around pre-slabs. However, I am all for slabs as they have done a lot more good than harm overall.

 

 

And, remember when folks learned how to do simple and complicated mathematics using an abacus or even paper and pencil? Well, let's all stop using our computers and electronic gadgets.

 

Not a good analogy. The computer is a much better (faster and more accurate) way of coming to a answer that only has one correct outcome. A sticker is just a second opinion about the opinion of another company. How many opinions do we need?

 

Er ah, wail yup, I jest b sum ole dumb*ss baicause I jesta luvs thaim CAC. Thez a jest bettr 4 me then a sai, oh wail I dunno, dis hear Greg gai - hims likesta bash everthaing, hims bahsin a CAC, hims bashin TPG, hims eivun a bashin TDN, aind hims like a bahsin' dumd*ss cullecters likes mes hoo caint graid, can't spail. Mee gauwsh!

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

...The dumbing down of people in this hobby is amazing...

 

Care to elaborate? My IQ has been tested in the top 2% of the population and I possess a Master's degree Magna Laude from a major university.

 

Do tell about how dumbed down this hobby is...............

 

Sadly there are a bunch of collectors and speculators who are like Pavlov's dogs. All they to see is the PCGS and CAC combination and they buy (salivate). The NGC - CAC combination does nothing for them and heaven forbid if ANYONE was ever dumb enough to buy a coin in an NGC holder with no CAC endorsement. Even a PCGS holder without a CAC sticker is suspect.

 

That's what we mean by "dumbing down." You can have a PhD from an Ivy League school with an IQ of 180, but if PCGS + CAC is the sole criterion for you numismatic purchases, you are "dumbed down" numismatic perspective so far as I'm concerned. A number of people ATS think I'm a dinosaur because I buy both NGC and PCGS grading coins and never try to cross anything to the "promised land " of PCGS holders.

 

'we mean'? Hmm. I thought it was Greg da-man saying this. Bill I think you are a brilliant guy and a fantastic numismatist who I try to learn from. But these kinds of posts of yours, suggesting that we should be as good at is as you, are not productive. Keep in mind, not all of us have time to do this full time, we need some help, these CAC opinions are part of that help just as are any other grading opinion we get. Oh how great it would be if I could spend every minute, every hour, every day, just looking at coins and learning how to grade LIKE YOU. Oh how great it would be if I had you in my pocket to help me each time I look at a coin. But I have a job and a life, so I can't, and you aren't in my pocket to help so I have to rely on whatever resources I can get. THANKS CAC FOR HELPING ME WITH MY DEFICIENCIES. No thanks to Bill and Greg who don't get this.

 

Best. HT

[AnkurJ]

You can bring a horse to water.....

[BillJones]

Yes, and here the other side of argument Hardtimes.

 

Do you want to have ONE grading company dominate the coin grading market? We are in danger of having that happen now because of PCGS - CAC dominance in so many circles. PCGS has had the lead for a long time. Now that we have the PCGS - CAC combination there is a very real danger than there will be only ONE standard, PCGS - CAC. Everyone else will be like ICG and SEGS, even the NCG - CAC graded coins. Do you really want to have to cross over all of your NGC to PCGS - CAC coins to get a fair price for them? Markets that are dominated by one seller are never good for consumers. Ultimately these monopoly sellers will charge more for their product and provide poorer service.

 

So far as help from CAC goes, I would rather have a good relationship with one or more reliable dealers, or advanced collectors who would be willing to spend the time with you to make YOU a stronger grader. CAC has made mistakes. They have been documented here. If you think that all you need to see is the PCGS - CAC endorsement when you are buying, you are placing too much faith in the system.

 

Many of us are aware of the 1807 PCGS graded dime that someone posted here some months back that was net graded from AU for VF-30 because of some significant damage on the obverse. PCGS should not have graded that coin, and given that CAC should never have put it its stamp of approval on it. This is not a lone example. I've had two others in my experience with 5 figure coins.

 

I'm not saying that CAC is bad; it has a legitimate purpose. I just wish that it could be more consistent, and I wish that more coin buyers could have respect for NGC - CAC graded coins. I wish that I could see a coin in a auction with the CAC endorsement and bid on it with confidence that the grade is dead on. My experience has not led me to be able to do that.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Many of us are aware of the 1807 PCGS graded dime that someone posted here some months back that was net graded from AU for VF-30 because of some significant damage on the obverse. PCGS should not have graded that coin, and given that CAC should never have put it its stamp of approval on it. This is not a lone example. I've had two others in my experience with 5 figure coins.

 

Three examples from thousands stickered and you wish for more consistency? Goodness...

 

And what does CAC do when faced with an error it has made? Promptly buys it off the market and removes the sticker. What more is reasonable?

[coinman_23885]

Many of us are aware of the 1807 PCGS graded dime that someone posted here some months back that was net graded from AU for VF-30 because of some significant damage on the obverse. PCGS should not have graded that coin, and given that CAC should never have put it its stamp of approval on it. This is not a lone example. I've had two others in my experience with 5 figure coins.

 

Three examples from thousands stickered and you wish for more consistency? Goodness...

 

And what does CAC do when faced with an error it has made? Promptly buys it off the market and removes the sticker. What more is reasonable?

 

I agree with your last point, and this is the reason why I like CAC. If I disagree, I have a guaranteed bid. In every instance that I have solicited a bid, the offers have been very fair and in many cases were closer to what I believed to be the true retail value of the coin.

 

Notwithstanding their buy back program, I have seen a number of CAC coins that I questioned. This is not to say that we can devise statistically significant findings from a small sample size, but I think there are more mistakes with CAC stickers than most would like to admit.

[BillJones]

Many of us are aware of the 1807 PCGS graded dime that someone posted here some months back that was net graded from AU for VF-30 because of some significant damage on the obverse. PCGS should not have graded that coin, and given that CAC should never have put it its stamp of approval on it. This is not a lone example. I've had two others in my experience with 5 figure coins.

 

Three examples from thousands stickered and you wish for more consistency? Goodness...

 

And what does CAC do when faced with an error it has made? Promptly buys it off the market and removes the sticker. What more is reasonable?

 

I'm glad to see than you can now admit that CAC can make a mistake. That's progress.

 

I'm not out to do a job on CAC, NGC or PCGS. I'm here to keep their feet to the fire so that they will improve and maintain their standards. If you advertise yourself as an unbiased expert then, to steal a phrase from Judge Judy, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining," or tell me to shut-up when you screw up. Fix the problem. No one gets everything right 100% of the time, but the percentages for a critic that is judging the quality of others' work, after those other parties have done the toughest part, should be quite high.

[joeyuk]

CAC came just by before I left the hobby. The grading companies have gone thru times of tight and loose grading standards so I felt CAC would bring consistency. In general I find U.S. coin held to a higher standard by PCGS then NGC. World coins I think are much more strictly graded NGC then PCGS. I own no coins with stickers but the coin must look good to me as well. The holder I think gives another opinion and protects me from buying a cleaned coin I might not see.

My question is if I have both a NGC and PCGS coin(same year,mint mark etc.) in say ms66 but what the two companies call a MS66 is different does a green sticker on each mean both coins are solid to each grading companies standards or to CAC standards for a MS66? I hope I was clear.

[MarkFeld]

CAC came just by before I left the hobby. The grading companies have gone thru times of tight and loose grading standards so I felt CAC would bring consistency. In general I find U.S. coin held to a higher standard by PCGS then NGC. World coins I think are much more strictly graded NGC then PCGS. I own no coins with stickers but the coin must look good to me as well. The holder I think gives another opinion and protects me from buying a cleaned coin I might not see.

My question is if I have both a NGC and PCGS coin(same year,mint mark etc.) in say ms66 but what the two companies call a MS66 is different does a green sticker on each mean both coins are solid to each grading companies standards or to CAC standards for a MS66? I hope I was clear.

A CAC sticker signifies the coin is solid for the grade based on CAC's (own) standards.

[joeyuk]

Thank you Mark.