Another interesting genuine or fake...this time, with a slab

[Max.F]

Just take a look at this coin.

 

I saw some Reales of Carolus III before and just wonder - either the pics are so bad or the coin is definitely a cast one: On the other hand... it's said to be a shipwreck coin, so I'm not sure. There is also a genuine-looking slab.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGHEST-GRADE-1783-8-REALES-EL-CAZADOR-NGC-SHIPWRECK-USA-1ST-SILVER-DOLLAR-COIN-/350773111750?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item51abb4ebc6

 

Anyway -

 

Reverse

1: the letters - a bit like spaghetti.. no sharp edges (actually this is valid for any detail of this coin)

2: very uneven surface. several cavities (like the one on the left side of the right pillar of Hercules.)

3: points on the left side, between the letters are not uniform and sometimes even do not look like points at all.

4: the 8 - looks...well, melted.

 

Now - since I do not have any experience in shipwreck coins (but do have some experience in casting) - maybe the see water may cause all these issues?

 

What do you think?

 

 

[Deerefan8420]

I believe the coin is genuine. It's in an NGC holder for one thing. I'm not aware of many fake or counterfeit coins that have gotten by the staff at NGC. Also, if you look up the Certification Number on the NGC website, you can see that it appears to be the same coin, same label

, same holder, etc. I think the coin is a bit over priced for a Genuine or Details graded coin though. But that's just my opinion.

[e1cnr]

I think if it is fake, they fooled NGC, and I doubt odyssey would bother with the hundreds of thousands they are sending through NGC

 

NGC cert verification with same coin

[Max.F]

I believe the coin is genuine. It's in an NGC holder for one thing. I'm not aware of many fake or counterfeit coins that have gotten by the staff at NGC. Also, if you look up the Certification Number on the NGC website, you can see that it appears to be the same coin, same label

, same holder, etc. I think the coin is a bit over priced for a Genuine or Details graded coin though. But that's just my opinion.

 

Well, I wasn't talking about counterfeit coin being certified at NGC, but that maybe the slab is a copy as well...

 

But you're right... I'll try to check if the number of the slab is matching.

[Max.F]

I think if it is fake, they fooled NGC, and I doubt odyssey would bother with the hundreds of thousands they are sending through NGC

 

NGC cert verification with same coin

 

Ok... maybe you're right... the seller should have taken the original NGC pics...

 

On the other hand, some details seems to be different... the number 8 in "8 R", the dot - just before the 8... don't you think?

[Deerefan8420]

It is highly unlikely that someone would spend that much effort or time to counterfeit an NGC slab, especially the newer slabs, for a low value details graded coin. You can find these Shipwreck coins all day long on Ebay and other coin retailers who sell them. Most of the unscrupulous persons who knowingly sell or advertise fake or counterfeit coins have moved on to the DIY at home slabbing kits. You see them on Ebay all the time. Those are the slabs I would be worried about.

[Deerefan8420]

I think if it is fake, they fooled NGC, and I doubt odyssey would bother with the hundreds of thousands they are sending through NGC

 

NGC cert verification with same coin

 

Ok... maybe you're right... the seller should have taken the original NGC pics...

 

On the other hand, some details seems to be different... the number 8 in "8 R", the dot - just before the 8... don't you think?

 

The lack of detail(s) in the coin is probably due to the coin being submerged and subjected to a salt water environment for so many years.

[Max.F]

That's an argument indeed... Even though I believe Chinese will make fakes of everything as long as the material value is less than the expected sales profit...

 

Just have a look here.. at least he is honest and says these are copies, though nothing like that is stamped on the coins..

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Chile-1786-DA-8-Reales-COPY/690335429.html

 

And there are many more offers, good example:

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Wholesale-1889-CC-Morgan-Dollar/316577_486542263.html

 

Citation; The price posted on our website is based on 100% copper made, with silver plated;

 

If you want it made from 90%silver, please contact us to get latest price.

[jayman1970]

Looks genuine to me,just salt water erosion or shipwreck effect as is sometimes called!

 

 

Jason

[Deerefan8420]

The market for counterfeit coins is high, and they are targeted towards novice collectors or to those who do noy know enough about coins to tell the difference. But fake/counterfeit coins like these will never make it into a reputable TPG holder.

[michael]

genuine coin with 200+ years of salt water corrosion altering the surfaces and details of the coin

 

then the coin is harshly cleaned/conserved/etc. to remove all incrustation to the point of making it semi prooflike flashly totally unoriginal and changed white surfaces

 

but presentable to seeing all the surfaces of the coin and also presentable to unknowledgable buyers paying huge premiums for history and expensive salvaging/holdering/marketing costs add some profit and there you go

 

it is genuine but totally destroyed in terms of original surfaces

[michael]

El Cazador (ship)From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from El Cazador Shipwreck)

Jump to: navigation, search Career (Spain)

Name: El Cazador

Fate: Wrecked early-1784

General characteristics

Type: Two-masted brig of war

 

The El Cazador (meaning The Hunter in English) was a Spanish brig that sank in the Gulf of Mexico in 1784. On October 20, 1783 it was sent by Charles III of Spain on a mission to bring much-needed hard currency to the Spanish colony of Louisiana. The ship sailed to Veracruz, Mexico, where it was loaded with approximately 450,000 Spanish reales.[1] King Carlos III enlisted his most trusted captain, Gabriel de Campos y Pineda, to captain the ship.[2] On January 11, 1784, it sailed for New Orleans, and was never heard from again.[3][4] Spain’s attempts to locate the ship were unsuccessful and in June 1784, El Cazador was officially listed as missing at sea.[2]

 

Then, on August 2, 1993, the trawler Mistake, while fishing in the Gulf of Mexico fifty miles south of New Orleans, hung its net on a snag. The trawler was captained by Jerry Murphy and its home port was Pascagoula, Mississippi. When the crew hoisted the net and dumped the contents on the deck, they found the net was filled with silver coins. The coins bore markings from the Spanish mint in Mexico, along with the date 1783.[5][6]

 

Treasure from the ship was originally housed in a safe at the old Grand Bay State Bank building in Grand Bay, Alabama. It is now administered through the Franklin Mint.

 

very sexy historical wise way overpriced value opportunity wise

 

[Max.F]

Btw. take a look. Just to show how secure the slabs are...

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/909911

 

I checked with this coin.

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/Alexander-III-Coronation-Rouble-1883-PCGS-MS63/762119594.html

 

everything, even the year is matching. Of course the coin itself looks a bit different, but definitely not different enough.

 

This one is even worse:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/PCGS-AU50-1889-CC-Morgan-coin/909911_666985659.html

[Max.F]

Probably not... but is PCGS reputable or not?

 

At least their slabs are obviously not...

[Conder101]

Do you realize you are looking at a website that is selling Chinese fakes, in fake slabs? And the seller, in China, is using the name PCGS but has no connection to the grading service.

[Max.F]

Of course I do realize. The Chinese seller even stresses this fact (for legal reason I think), but what will you do if someone buy a couple of such coins and sell them on eBay or elsewhere after that?

- for example, you buy a genuine coin in a slab directly from NGC, and for whatever reason- you want to sell it a couple of years later.

Same I do - buy a coin in a slab, but from this Chinese fake specialist and try to sell it as well.

 

How should the potential buyer decide if your slab is genuine, or my slab is fake?

 

I really think, when NGC or PCGS are handling coins worth several thousands of dollars (well, even if only hundreds of dollars), they should invent something else to protect them, than cheap slabs with cheap holos.

 

P.S - this posting was actually intended to answer the argument, that nobody would mess with the NGC slabs, just to fake a coin of some 100 dollar value.

 

[BruceS]

WOW I knew they made fakes, but the real looking PCGS slabs too. Pretty scary, do they copy NGCs slabs, have any links?

[Max.F]

WOW I knew they made fakes, but the real looking PCGS slabs too. Pretty scary, do they copy NGCs slabs, have any links?

 

I haven't found any so far, but not sure if there is much difference...technically it is all the same, a slab is a slab, a holo is a holo.

 

Basically - in my opinion, this is completely undermining the secondary market of coins.

 

Actually it is worth a new topic, but have you ever considered if it is possible at all to detect a fake coin if it is made on such a high-professional level?

 

Usually the fakes are different in material, or shape or at least details. But it's no doubt, that the most valuable coins are not worth that much because of the material they are made of.. Now if such a Chinese "I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect." sxxxer is working with good equipment, take the same silver or gold grades as raw material, do not cast, but strike the coins.

How would NGC or PCGS be able to decide if its genuine or not? Since there is no casting process in such a case, I'm not even sure if radiocarbon or any other similar dating method would help much - the coins are not THAT old after all... a couple of hundreds of years is maybe not enough.

 

I would really like to have an opinion of someone experienced in such things.

[e1cnr]

Here is a NGC, no idea if it is a fake. They probably don't sell many as they are asking twice what they are worth.

 

same website in CHINA

[jpcienkus]

Here is a NGC, no idea if it is a fake. They probably don't sell many as they are asking twice what they are worth.

 

same website in CHINA

 

Is it just me or does that label look too big for the NGC holder?

[Max.F]

Here is a NGC, no idea if it is a fake. They probably don't sell many as they are asking twice what they are worth.

 

same website in CHINA

 

 

I'm not sure if it is, but at least the morgan Dollar I linked to was it 100%.

 

I guess they do not fake coins of 100 $ value and try to sell them for 135 $ after that.

The genuine dollar was sold for about 3k last time, acc. to the PCGS recroding.

Means buying for 135 and selling even for 300 later is more than 100% profit for the scammer in the US or Europe.

Obviously they are the target audience of these chinese super-fakes.

 

Btw. take a look here. These 2 are exact copies;

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/90-silver-1889-CC-Morgan-Dollar/316577_796357437.html

[BruceS]

That NGC slab IMO is the real deal, if its a fake then it's the best one I've seen.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3618522-063