Fake or genuine. Morgan Dollar 1878 s

[Max.F]

I recently bought a pretty nice looking Morgan Dollar, 1878 s.

 

The seller was selling a lot of them, about 30 pieces but all in different condition and with different years. I think there was not even one year doubled with same mint mark.

 

Anyway - after receipt I became a bit suspicious. The coin looks just... well - too good, and also a bit too shiny (please take a look at the pictures I made)

Now, after a couple of tests I’m still unsure.

Coin is unmagnetic.

Ring test – sounds good, clear and long-standing sound.

Weight: - I do not have some very precise scales, but since the scales I have always jump from 26 to 27 grams and back – I think it is quite matching.

Size: - this is a bit difficult. Seems to be rather 37,9 -38,0 mm than 38,1 mm – measured with a ruler, there is no position with both, the zero line and the 38 mm line are covered by the coin the same time.

 

Look: looks at least cleaned or polished, but I’m not sure. Take a look at the pictures.

Both monograms are goog visible and at the right place.

Obverse/Reverse direction towards each other seems to be also correct.

 

Edge: this is also a question - looks for me as if the length of the “cuts” is a bit too short. While almost completely cutting to the back side, there is still some space to the obverse. I tried to make some pictures of it as well.

 

I would like to know your opinion if it looks like a genuine coin or rather like a fake (hope the file manager will add the pics correctly beacuse, for some reason I see them as place markers for pics only)

I can also submit large-size pictures if you like.

 

Thanks for your help.

[BillJones]

I don't care for it. The reeding is wrong, and the general appearance reminds me of the other Chinese counterfeits I have seen. This polished "aged" look is one of the devices they are using now to make their stuff look genuine.

 

I hope you take this in the right way, but this is not a "pretty nice looking" 1878-S dollar, even it is genuine. As you stated the piece has been cleaned, and the surfaces are not original. This is sort of piece you will find in bins of ciruclated Morgan dollars that some dealers maintain. The 1878-S is a common date in the series and finding a nicer one is not difficult.

 

Here is an example of an 1878 Morgan dollar graded MS-63 to give you some bearings. This is one of the 7 over 8 tailfeather varieties.

 

[Max.F]

Thanks for the answer,

 

could you explain what exactly is wrong with the reeding?

 

I compared your pics with my coin and I do not see any difference.

 

Regarding the bins - we do not have things like that here in Germany, and even if you find one - the risk of buying a chinese fake is same high there.

 

Regarding the polishing - as long as a coin is genuine - I do not care for it in this particular case. I bought it not for my collection, but just for having this piece of history.

 

Still the coin has to be genuine, and that's why I'm asking here.

[bsshog40]

I'm waiting for more from Bill too! Just looks like a harshly cleaned Morgan to me.

[Max.F]

I actlally think the same, but as I wrote - there is a size difference.

37,9/38 mm to 38,1 mm - this is the most suspicous part for me.

[BillJones]

I could not a picture of the edge (reeding) as you got so here is my picture of a genuine 1878 dollar edge.

 

 

 

[RWB]

If the diameter is irregular, or 37.9mm, then it is a fake or has been altered. The variation in diameter of US coins is very slight. I suggest you check your coin with good calipers, not a ruler.

[Max.F]

I have to admit - still see no real difference.

See below the picture of my coin

[Mr Bo Jingles]

There is something that just doesn't look right to me on the date of the suspect coin. I am by no means an expert on this, but we had a member of our coin club bring in some counterfeits he purchased from a walk up at a show and the color from those coins to yours is consistent.

 

He had about 6 coins, all different dates but they all looked similar with similar die defects on the reverse which was my big red flag and instantly I knew they were fake. It must be much harder when you only have the one example to look at.

[HiHoAudio]

The Chinese have our old coin presses and dies and crank out hundreds of fake Morgans every week. They are very good at it and it's no disgrace to get stuck with one. Think of it as an education.

 

Keep it as a pocket coin to show off and educate others with. And perhaps consider buying only certified Morgans in the future.

 

NGC Certified Redfield Morgans!

 

[Mark T]

How much did you pay for the coin ?? Maybe $ 40 ? If it’s fake $40 is a cheap lesson. It is hard to tell from you photos although it does have that counterfeit look to it – if it is real it has been cleaned or polished anyway.

 

[BillJones]

There is something that just doesn't look right to me on the date of the suspect coin. I am by no means an expert on this, but we had a member of our coin club bring in some counterfeits he purchased from a walk up at a show and the color from those coins to yours is consistent.

 

He had about 6 coins, all different dates but they all looked similar with similar die defects on the reverse which was my big red flag and instantly I knew they were fake. It must be much harder when you only have the one example to look at.

 

This is how I feel about this piece. It has suspicious look to it with the surface polishing that seems to appear on every fairly recent Chinese counterfeit that I have seen. They are getting better at duplicating the design devices, and perhaps they have stopping making non-existent issues, like an 1886-CC dollar. It seems that the Chinese have backed off on the "Mint State" market and are now making their products appear to be circulated and cleaned. It's a way to throw off the novice and intermediate collector into thinking that the piece is okay because it appears to have been used.

 

The counterfeiters did the same thing 200+ years ago when they issued their fake pieces that looked like they were "worn." If someone else had taken it, it must be good. Right?

 

[Max.F]

Well- the coin was not expensive, if it is definitely a fake I can even give it back.

Regarding buying certified coins- well, if it is for a serious collection- maybe there is a reason then. But I only collect ancient coins seriously. The morgan dollar was just to have it since I like the coin for some reason. But like- means also holding it in hand and not only looking at it in a sealed slab.

 

That's why I'm so interested in clarifiying if this coin is genuine or not.

Basically- if it is only polished or cleaned- doesn't matter. But as it was already said here- the coin looks some kind of strange. This mirrorl-like glance looks wrong. But I hope you can find something more specific. I could even post supersize pics if it helps.

[Max.F]

and now some large size pics. I hope they will help.

 

 

 

 

[bsshog40]

Well I'm still just seeing a harshing cleaned and polished Morgan. If it's a counterfeit, I'd have been taken also.

[RWB]

Looks better in the big photos. PAF, 7-TF.

 

It has been cleaned and buffed to heck, so it's mostly a "melt" coin now.

[Max.F]

Hmm, considering English being not my first language... what means PAF, 7-TF?

Same - what means a "melt" coin?

 

But anyway -I have to admit, on the eBay photos this horrible polish was absolutely not visible:

 

Have a look here: http://www.ebay.de/itm/171016944933

 

Seller with 3k 100% positive feedback, since 01.04.99 on eBay...

 

P.S what do you think about this slight difference in OD?

 

Btw. can an almost uncirculated morgan dollar be 26,74 g, is it some inaccuracy of the scales or rather a fake?

[cpm9ball]

The Chinese have our old coin presses and dies and crank out hundreds of fake Morgans every week. They are very good at it and it's no disgrace to get stuck with one. Think of it as an education.

 

Keep it as a pocket coin to show off and educate others with. And perhaps consider buying only certified Morgans in the future.

 

NGC Certified Redfield Morgans!

 

 

The Chinese do have the old presses from the Mint, but I do not believe that the dies were part of the deal back around 1920.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

I have to admit - still see no real difference.

See below the picture of my coin

 

Max, I read (somewhere?) that one of the hardest things for the Chinese in striking the counterfeit Morgans was getting the reeding correct. Note on yours that the ends of the recesses appear to taper and the ends of the recesses on Bill's coin are more blunt.

 

Have you checked the reed count against those listed in the VAM Bible?

 

Chris

[RWB]

Sorry - too much jargon from me.

 

PAF = parallel arrow feathers on the reverse.

7-TF= the eagle has 7 feathers in its tail.

 

melt = the coin is worth mostly the value of the silver it contains. Too badly damaged for most collectors to pay moe than metal value.

[RWB]

re: "The Chinese have our old coin presses and dies and crank out hundreds of fake Morgans every week."

 

The old presses have been rebuilt many times and do not strike coins exactly like the originals. Differences are subtle, but real.

 

[Max.F]

Well, I thought the same, till I saw this : http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Fake-Morgan-Dollars---Edges.htm

 

Especially the third and the last coin from the left...

 

 

further, if we just compare the reeding of the both coins, best in an area with little damage and scuff -

take a look. You see a really significant difference?

 

 

I do not... this is definitely not a criterion of course!

[Max.F]

Thanks RWB - as I said - for me, such a coin is not for putting it into a coin case. I know neither the year, nor the condition are worth it- but still a piece of history (as far as it is genuine) I can hold in the hand without being worried of losing a lot if lose it for some reason

[copper toning]

Thanks RWB - as I said - for me, such a coin is not for putting it into a coin case. I know neither the year, nor the condition are worth it- but still a piece of history (as far as it is genuine) I can hold in the hand without being worried of losing a lot if lose it for some reason

 

Looks genuine to me. However if you have any doubt at all return the coin.

 

Then go the bst forum and find a member who will sell you what you want at a fair price then you will have no worries.

 

 

Jim

[cpm9ball]

Sorry - too much jargon from me.

 

PAF = parallel arrow feathers on the reverse.

7-TF= the eagle has 7 feathers in its tail.

 

melt = the coin is worth mostly the value of the silver it contains. Too badly damaged for most collectors to pay moe than metal value.

 

ITYAR - I think you are right!

 

Chris

[joes2001]

I think it's genuine. I would definitely do a magnet test and weight it on a precise scale. Compare the weight to genuine pieces. If it passes these tests, then it's probably a cleaned coin. And the cleaning looks light, so it's ok, especially if you aren't concerned with the cleaning. But there's something special about a historical coin like that with more natural surfaces.

[messydesk]

Looks real. The reverse is used on VAM 5, 7, and 46. I can't tell which obverse it is due to the nasty polishing job,