Does this look original to you?

[coinman_23885]

 

Does this coin look original to you?

 

[Hard Times]

I think this is natural toning. There are lots of irregularities (spotty, fingerprint enhanced on SW across the stalks) across the toned surfaces especially on the reverse suggesting that it toned over a long period of time.

 

Best, HT

[physics-fan3.14]

Nope. Not even close. That has had a date with MS-70, sure as rain falls from the sky.

[copper toning]

I see nothing wrong with it. Proofs can either toned in many ways or get free passes.

 

Honestly even if I watched it get MS 70ed I would still gladly own this one.

 

Did it sell at a recent heritage auction?

[MarkFeld]

The obverse - possibly/probably, but the reverse, possibly/probably not. I realize that taking the two together, sounds inconsitent.

[copper toning]

I see nothing wrong with it. Proofs can either toned in many ways or get free passes.

 

Honestly even if I watched it get MS 70ed I would still gladly own this one.

 

Did it sell at a recent heritage auction?

 

Never mind I was thinking of a different date I was watching.

[copper toning]

The obverse - possibly/probably, but the reverse, possibly/probably not. I realize that taking the two together, sounds inconsitent.

 

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

[MarkFeld]

The obverse - possibly/probably, but the reverse, possibly/probably not. I realize that taking the two together, sounds inconsitent.

 

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

 

The reverse looks as if it has been treated with MS70 and the obverse, possibly so. All things considered, I have decided that I don't think the color is "original".

[copper toning]

The obverse - possibly/probably, but the reverse, possibly/probably not. I realize that taking the two together, sounds inconsitent.

 

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

 

The reverse looks as if it has been treated with MS70 and the obverse, possibly so. All things considered, I have decided that I don't think the color is "original".

 

Is it the intensity of the reverse compared to the obverse that led to your original conclusion?

[coinman1794]

I have handled proof copper with this look that was absolutely natural. I voted borderline only because its not possible to tell from the pictures.

 

Keep in mind that the delicate surfaces of a proof tone differently than business strike coins, and that the mirrors will artificially enhance the color when put into direct light.

 

 

[TonerGuy]

Is it in a PCGS/NGC plastic ?

[coinman_23885]

Is it in a PCGS/NGC plastic ?

 

Yes, it is in PCGS plastic and I questioned it. That's why I posted it here. I was wondering if I was off. The coin did not look original to me or it was at least borderline, and my first thought was that it had been possibly MS70ed at some point.

 

PCGS graded this coin PF66 BN.

[jom]

My first impression is MS70.

 

However, that photo looks more like a painting than it does an actual photo. Very tough to judge with that.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

The obverse - possibly/probably, but the reverse, possibly/probably not. I realize that taking the two together, sounds inconsitent.

 

Perhaps you could explain your reasoning.

 

The reverse looks as if it has been treated with MS70 and the obverse, possibly so. All things considered, I have decided that I don't think the color is "original".

 

Is it the intensity of the reverse compared to the obverse that led to your original conclusion?

 

It's the color, not the intensity, that makes me suspicious.

[wheat'swheats]

I've been collecting copper for over 50 years, and I think that if that one is right, I have a billygoat that is a delta airlines pilot.

wheat

[MarkFeld]

I've been collecting copper for over 50 years, and I think that if that one is right, I have a billygoat that is a delta airlines pilot.

wheat

 

But WHY do you feel that way?

[brg5658]

My first impression is MS70.

 

However, that photo looks more like a painting than it does an actual photo. Very tough to judge with that.

 

jom

 

I agree. I have a hard time having an opinion when this looks like the normal PCGS TrueView dreck images that emphasize color and hide all true surface qualities. Who knows what the coin actually looks like straight on with normal lighting.

[coinman1794]

Proof copper from this era can, and does, tone in this way.

 

Sometimes, it's all about the lighting and camera angle. These colors can be subtle colors that are dancing over the mirrored luster and magnified under the right lighting.

 

Here is one I sold a few years ago:

 

[Hard Times]

I spent a thread carefully documenting that MS70 DOES NOT create purple/blue/red toning on copper, but instead removes patina, organics, and dirt. It has a pH of 13.7 and is likely a K- or Na-hydroxide based detergent. See the thread below. It is an experiment that shows without a doubt that no red/blue/purple toning illustrated in the coin above is ADDED from being 'MS70ed'. Note also that the toning on the 2 cent in question does not occur on the devices as would be expected if it were emplaced instantly by rubbing MS70 or something else over the whole surface that would then react with copper on the whole surface if such a product existed that could cause such toning. This supports the case for the toning taking a long time. If folks want to continue to believe that MS70 is some kind of magic formula to create such stuning toning, I encourage them to show some evidence that MS70, a hydroxide based detergent, can make this kind of toning. No evidence exists. Take a look at every thread that shows experiments on copper using MS70 and you will see no consistent turning of copper to the colors in question by applying it. Many coppers remain copper. What is consistent is the clear documentation of removing dirt, patina, and organics.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4623811&fpart=1

 

Best, HT

[wheat'swheats]

I've been collecting copper for over 50 years, and I think that if that one is right, I have a billygoat that is a delta airlines pilot.

wheat

 

But WHY do you feel that way?

Those marks under the 2 (lack of color) bother me immediately and I just do not think it is right, just like you obviously think it is. I would not buy it that's just me.

wheat

[AnkurJ]

The PCGS trueview shows an ideal angle where the color pops. It may not look like it in hand at every angle.

Based on the added images, it looks natural to me.

[coinman1794]

The PCGS trueview shows an ideal angle where the color pops. It may not look like it in hand at every angle.

Based on the added images, it looks natural to me.

 

The coin I just posted is not the same coin. It's a similar coin I sold a few years ago. I thought it a pertinent example of the toning these can develop.

[TonerGuy]

PCGS graders are above reproach... I say MA. ()

[coinman_23885]

The PCGS trueview shows an ideal angle where the color pops. It may not look like it in hand at every angle.

Based on the added images, it looks natural to me.

 

Ankur, the images aren't of the same coin. The other coinman posted a different coin.

[Eric Hazen]

Looks good to me.

[$ilverHawk]

I am totally stumped on how anyone can make an educated comment based on the photographs posted in the OP s original post.

 

I am open to learning. Exactly what in the OP s photographs provide enough information to determine if this coin has original toning or not?

 

Carl

[coinman_23885]

I am totally stumped on how anyone can make an educated comment based on the photographs posted in the OP s original post.

 

I am open to learning. Exactly what in the OP s photographs provide enough information to determine if this coin has original toning or not?

 

Carl

 

I agree that the photographs have a lot to be desired, but I think they are sufficient to make a judgment regarding color patterns, progressions, and at least to some extent, the colors themselves.

[AnkurJ]

My error. There is no way to tell based on those images if the coin is NT.

[coinsarefun]

It reminds me of a token I own and imaged by Goodman.

the image shows the same idea, when rotated you see the deep blues.

Head on it has more brown showing.

Also, doesn't capture the luster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Stefanie, I like your token and it looks no where close to the coloration on the coin that I originally posted.