Determining originality of toning...

[TonerGuy]

When buying raw toned coins (if you buy raw toned coins) how much does 1) who the seller is and 2) what, if any premium, he is asking for the coin factor into your AT/NT/MA analysis ?

 

Also, 3) how much does his other toned inventory factor into your analysis as well ?

 

Edit to add: --> Does whether you think the coin will slabbed at PCGS or NGC factor into your decision to buy a raw toned coin ?

 

I know certain toning on certain coins that will slab without question, others that are 50/50 and some that, while I know/believe the coin to be NT, has little chance to getting into plastic...

 

Would you pass on the coins you know to be NT but not MA ? Or do you buy them and keep them raw ?

 

And are there other factors that make a difference to you ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

When buying raw toned coins (if you buy raw toned coins) how much does 1) who the seller is and [...]

 

The seller will not convince me that a borderline or questionably toned piece is NT; however, if the seller has a reputation for selling doctored garbage, any borderline situation would be construed against the coin/seller. Frankly, I don't deal with dealers/sellers who engage in questionable practices.

 

2) what, if any premium, he is asking for the coin factor into your AT/NT/MA analysis ?

 

It doesn't enter into my analysis of whether the coin is NT/MA/AT, but it will affect my willingness to potentially purchase the coin. The more risk, the less I am willing to put on the line for a coin. I can easily live with a $50-$100 mistake; I cannot afford $1500+ errors as easily.

 

Also, 3) how much does his other toned inventory factor into your analysis as well ?

 

As a general rule, I try to examine each coin on its own merits; however, if I notice that a seller has a number of questionable pieces and/or blatantly doctored coins, then I think one would be naive to ignore this. As stated above, I would refrain from dealing with the seller at all.

 

[coinsarefun]

I examine the coin first, then take in account the seller and past experiences.

 

The price does not matter that much unless I am either unsure of my judgement

or the price is beyond any reasonable amount.

 

 

 

 

[rainbow roosie]

Only influence is my own experience and judgement. When in doubt, do not buy.

[physics-fan3.14]

 

 

 

When buying raw toned coins (if you buy raw toned coins) how much does 1) who the seller is and 2) what, if any premium, he is asking for the coin factor into your AT/NT/MA analysis ?

 

Also, 3) how much does his other toned inventory factor into your analysis as well ?

 

And are there other factors that make a difference to you ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do buy raw toned coins, yes. The seller influences my decision a little bit - if he is known for his quality toned coins, I am more likely to trust a coin in his inventory. If he is known for selling AT'd coins, honestly I probably wouldn't even stop at his table.

 

The price has no bearing on my determination of the originality of the toning. It has every bearing on my willingness to buy the piece.

 

The adage that a person is judged by the company he keeps is definitely true for toned coins as well. If a coin is borderline, hard to tell, with some characteristics of natural toning - but it comes from a case with a couple other coins that are clearly AT, then I am going to assume that the coin is also AT. If it comes from a case with a bunch of other attractive, clearly natural coins, I'm going to give it a second look and carefully determine if I think it is natural or not.

 

In the end, my knowledge of toning, how it forms, what causes it, how it behaves, the natural colors, common patterns, and other factors are what are going to eventually convince me the coin is natural or not.

[dimefreak]

If I knew somebody that could make MA toned coins I'd be his best friend....It it wouldnt bother me a lick to pay him a premium for his service (talent)

[TonerGuy]

Added to original post....

[James_OldeTowne]

1) who the seller is

Doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

 

2) what, if any premium, he is asking for the coin factor into your AT/NT/MA analysis ?

None at all. The premium determines whether I'll buy the coin based on a simple "can I afford it" scenario, but that is all.

 

3) how much does his other toned inventory factor into your analysis as well ?

None whatsoever.

 

And are there other factors that make a difference to you ?

"Do I like how the toning looks?"

"Can I afford it?"

 

These two questions pretty much sum it up for me.

[Raisethis2]

Around here the Dealers who show up almost never have toned inventory anyway so it's a non issue. When the rare toned coin is spotted it usually commands an obscene premium, rendering it unbuyable.

 

On EBay the first thing I do is look at a Sellers inventory to determine if he has other similarly toned coins. That tells me a lot. If the Seller hasn't got a following it's hard to get any premium from the bottom feeder buyers no matter how attractive the coin might be.

 

Determining AT/NT is pretty subjective to me. The fact that the coin isn't in a holder by now makes me very, very wary.

[mumu]

 

 

When buying raw toned coins (if you buy raw toned coins) how much does 1) who the seller is and 2) what, if any premium, he is asking for the coin factor into your AT/NT/MA analysis ?

 

Also, 3) how much does his other toned inventory factor into your analysis as well ?

 

And are there other factors that make a difference to you ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do buy raw toned coins, yes. The seller influences my decision a little bit - if he is known for his quality toned coins, I am more likely to trust a coin in his inventory. If he is known for selling AT'd coins, honestly I probably wouldn't even stop at his table.

 

The price has no bearing on my determination of the originality of the toning. It has every bearing on my willingness to buy the piece.

 

The adage that a person is judged by the company he keeps is definitely true for toned coins as well. If a coin is borderline, hard to tell, with some characteristics of natural toning - but it comes from a case with a couple other coins that are clearly AT, then I am going to assume that the coin is also AT. If it comes from a case with a bunch of other attractive, clearly natural coins, I'm going to give it a second look and carefully determine if I think it is natural or not.

 

In the end, my knowledge of toning, how it forms, what causes it, how it behaves, the natural colors, common patterns, and other factors are what are going to eventually convince me the coin is natural or not.

 

Your last 2 paragraphs are to a certain degree contradictory.

[rmpsrpms]

If I knew somebody that could make MA toned coins I'd be his best friend....It it wouldnt bother me a lick to pay him a premium for his service (talent)

 

Wow, just wow.

[MarkFeld]

 

1) To me, the seller usually doesn't, but can matter. There are some sellers whom I trust implicitly and whose knowledge and opinions I greatly respect. On occasion, I am on the fence and can be swayed.

 

2) The premium being asked certainly has a bearing on my purchasing decision. And that applies, whether I have any question about originality or not.

 

3) The company which a coin keeps can affect me. Some (myself included, on occasion) say it is best to judge a coin on its own merits. But I think other considerations can be helpful.

 

4) My assessment as to whether the coin will end up in NGC or PCGS plastic plays a large role. But that is largely because I hardly ever deal in uncertified coins.

[Kurtdog]

When buying raw toned coins (if you buy raw toned coins) how much does 1) who the seller is and 2) what, if any premium, he is asking for the coin factor into your AT/NT/MA analysis ?

 

Also, 3) how much does his other toned inventory factor into your analysis as well ?

 

Edit to add: --> Does whether you think the coin will slabbed at PCGS or NGC factor into your decision to buy a raw toned coin ?

 

I know certain toning on certain coins that will slab without question, others that are 50/50 and some that, while I know/believe the coin to be NT, has little chance to getting into plastic...

 

Would you pass on the coins you know to be NT but not MA ? Or do you buy them and keep them raw ?

 

And are there other factors that make a difference to you ?

 

I usually request they get the coin graded by one of the major TPGs. In lieu of that I've been known to accept a deposition under oath and penalty of perjury the coin is either NT or MA but not AT or QT.

[TonerGuy]

1) I find myself more likely to purchase what I call a raw borderline toner (what that means to me is whether its MA) from dealers/sellers that have little to no toner business.

 

2) Also, Im more inclined to buy a borderline coin from a dealer/seller that doesnt submit to PCGS/NGC or any other TPG.

 

3) Im even more inclined to buy most of the attractive borderline toned coins in a dealers/seller's inventory if they pass both 1) and 2) above... and there is little to no premium charged for the toning.

 

For example, I went to a mid-sized show yesterday and plucked out 3 toned Peace $ from a dealer's inventory of raw coins. These were his only toned Peace $ and from what I saw the majority of his toners. He buys old collections and resells raw at reasonable prices for even key dates. He knows little to nothing about toning premiums.

 

I cannot say that I think these Peace $ are NT but I also cant say they are AT. All 3 coins have characteristics of both and I can honestly say I have never seen toning exactly the same as these but each has toning that I have encounter before, just never together. To me these coins look kraft enveloped toned...and that would seem to match the dealer's MO for buying old collections.

 

But at $40 per coin, how could I lose ? If they slab these could sell for a nice premium. If they dont, I could also sell them for melt and only lose $13 a coin...

 

Are they MA, I dont know.

 

Perhaps I should post some pics and let you guys decide, it just going to be tough to capture the colors on these 3....

[TonerGuy]

Sorry for the bit of lack of clarity. I had to compress these quite a bit from the original photo...

 

The first two coins have pastel pinks and blues that are under a golden patina that come out when rotated under a light...

 

The third and fourth coin photos are accurate head on...

 

 

 

 

And this one is for comparison and a coin I consider NT and MA...

 

[coinman_23885]

Sorry for the bit of lack of clarity. I had to compress these quite a bit from the original photo... The first two coins are more golden then the pics appear but I want to show the color lying underneath the gold when the coin is tilted in the light...

 

 

 

 

And this one is for comparison and a coin I consider NT and MA...

 

 

The first three look AT to me (or questionable to say the least). The last one looks natural to me.

[physics-fan3.14]

The first three look AT to me (or questionable to say the least). The last one looks natural to me.

 

Going solely by the oddly lit pictures with seemingly odd white balance, I'm going to have to agree. The first two look like they could be ok (although, nothing special - they are probably worth what you paid for them). But that third one - that has a very odd look to it that I am not comfortable with.

[TonerGuy]

Actually I got lucky with the timing of this...

 

The first two coins look like the 22 toned Peace on the left in Shane's auction, except instead of green/blue highlights they have pinks/blues - more like the color on the reverse of the darkly toned 1923 in the same auction... Shane takes great pics. I couldnt capture this.

 

This is why I say the coins have both AT and NT qualities...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Peace-Dollars-Rainbow-Toned-1922-1923-COLORFUL-TONING-Uncirculated-/330887193308?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item4d0a69e2dc

 

You cant tell from my pics but when rotated in the light the color jumps out from underneath the gold... its not monster but it would draw a premium.

 

The third coin... is the one that I am most concerned with but again it would be odd to be an AT coin in a dealers stock of hundreds/thousands of coins without any other toners...

[MJ]

I honestly don't care what is thought of by most others of what is AT, NT or MA.I trust my eye, my series and my sources. The rest is just noise. MJ