The Most Beautiful Proof Indian Cent I've ever seen (... or two?)

[WingedLiberty1]

After Mark Feld posted his most beautiful CBH thread, and seeing how much fun that was, I was moved to share this ...

 

I was poking around on Heritage and stumbled across a STUNNING 1901 Proof Indian Cent with probably the best obverse toning and color that I have ever seen on any toned Proof Indian.

It was in an NGC PR67RB STAR slab.

 

The thing I "fell backwards in my chair over" was the thick florescent green and gold obverse color and the other vibrant contrasting obverse colors all with smooth-as-silk transitions. Of course the reverse of this coin is not nearly as nice as the obverse and actually looks a bit marred to my eye, and I would almost call the reverse un-toned (though clearly there is some slight green color showing through).

 

 

A coin of this year and grade is listed as having an average market (list) value of $2,090 in the NGC/Numismedia guide based on grade and date ...

 

And it sold for $9,987 in August 2012, a 4.8x toning premium, where 15 bidders participated in a heated battle over it.

 

Heritage Auction (1901)

 

I showed this monster coin to my good friend Robec and he pointed me to another beautiful Proof Indian (ex. D. Blake) that is the highest graded BN Proof Indian by PCGS.

 

It's an 1885 PR67+BN. And is the only known PR67+BN Indian ever graded by PCGS with none higher in the BN color class.

 

The things I love about this second example is the MONSTER two sided coordinated color (I think the reverse is actually better than the obverse) and the visible flow lines on the obverse (WOW).

 

 

This second beautiful Proof Indian sold "SHOCKINGLY" for only $4,025 in Feb 2011. Amazingly enough this coin is listed as having a market value of $5,000 in the PCGS Price Guide.

So this monster sold for 20% UNDER the guide price ... a toning premium of less than 1 (only 0.8x). This was the bargain of the decade! Probably the fact that only 5 people were bidding had an impact.

 

Heritage Auction Link (1885 PF67+BN)

 

Where were we all in Feb 2011!!! We must have all been "asleep at the wheel" to miss this one (Clearly we need Mark Feld to give us a heads up, I suppose)

 

This coin currently resides in the PCGS Registry of Withers/Ashley, so I can only assume that he/she must have bought it for this bargain price ($4k) back in 2011.

 

By the way if you want to see a BEAUTIFUL registry set of gorgeous toned Indians, take a gander at:

 

The Withers Collection under Ashley's Sets

 

Comparing these two Indians is interesting and it's difficult to determine which coin to crown as the "Most Beautiful" Proof Indian. Certainly we are comparing apples to oranges here since one is PCGS graded and one is NGC graded (would either service cross the other and at what grade?). The next fly in the ointment is the 1885 Indian was photographed out-of-the-slab by PCGS TrueView, while the 1901 was shot through-the-slab by the Heritage photographer (I am guessing). Still it's clear how beautiful and unique that 1901 is.

 

Finally I thought I would trying scoring both coins in my recently developed Flash Index system which attempts to score the beauty of colorfully toned coins for ranking purposes. Flash Index scores range from 0.0 to 10.0, and any score above 9.0 is considered to be monster "Gold Level" toning. Just for reference, I have scored very few coins above 9.5, and have yet to find a perfect 10.0.

 

I did want to note that in the Flash Index scoring, if one side is considered "untoned", the scores of the toned side duplicate in the top four color categories, that is why there are x's in the first four color categories for the reverse side of the 1901. This is done so that coins with one monster side and one untoned side (as the case with a large number of bag toned Morgans) can still achieve a high score. This is born out in market prices where a single sided monster color coin is not punished for having an untoned side. However other attributes (other than color) of the untoned side can affect the score -- as the case with the 1901 where the reverse attributes knocked off 4 points.

 

So how did these two coins score in Flash?

 

It was a tie! Why am I not surprised?

 

The obverse toning scored perfect on the 1901, and the reverse scored perfect on the 1885.

 

 

 

In terms of the prices these coins recently sold at. I think the 1901 is nearly fully valued at $10,000. However with it being so beautiful, I wouldn't be surprised if some deep pocketed collector was willing to pay $12,000 or more for this someday. It's a unique and eye-catching piece.

 

Clearly the 1885 PR67+BN sold way too low at a bit over $4k. I think fair market value might be (or should be) closer to $8,000 or perhaps higher. However I doubt this would be for sale at any price for many years.

 

It doesn't really surprise me too much that the 1901 sold for so much more than the 1885. Since obverse toning takes precedence over reverse toning, and the 1901 has the best obverse toning I have ever seen on any Proof Indian. That being said the 1885 sold WAY TOO CHEAP at $4k in 2011.

 

But in any case, both coins are stunningly beautiful and I would call this a TIE as to which one is more beautiful or striking.

 

Too close to call for me. Which is your favorite?

 

And if you have some other Proof Indians that you think are better or at least on the same level as these two, please post. I am sure I have only seen a fraction of what is out there.

 

[mkman123]

very nice, my fav is the ngc one

[brg5658]

Paul, I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- your "Flash Index" cracks me up. It is anything but "objective" as you claim. And, why would the obverse scores for the 1901 "duplicate" for the reverse (?) -- the reverse on that 1901 is not that attractive IMO. That scoring "rule" makes no sense to me.

 

In my opinion, that 1885 blows the 1901 to pieces in terms of eye appeal -- or "flash" as you call it. Just my 2 cents...

 

PS -- You can't just copy your text from the PCGS forum here. You need to fix all of the broken URL links that didn't work.

[grip]

There is no comparison in eye appeal..1885 is ,as brg5658 states..just blows it away.......and your "flash" makes no sense to me either.

[MarkFeld]

I think the 1885 is noticeably more appealing looking and have seen quite a few others that I thought were even more beautiful than those two.

 

But this is yet another good illustration of the concept that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[kryptonitecomics]

I am not blown away with either of those coins color wise....I have seen better and in my opinion I have owned better from a toning perspective but as Mark says...beauty is in the eye of the beholder so if they float your boat then nothing wrong with that!

 

 

One of them is here though these are quite possibly the worst photo's you will ever see of the coin which I think was unfortunately reflected in the price

 

1907 Proof 66BN

 

 

[WingedLiberty1]

Hey krrpto. Is that a fingerprint on the obverse of that 1907?

[mkman123]

wow bad pics on that heritage coin! They need to send it to shane!

[kryptonitecomics]

There wasn't a print on the coin...that ones' on the slab as you can even see it above the coin and a bit to the left. The scanner picked it up but not the color on the coin...

[brg5658]

Winged, do you still own that beautiful blue PCGS AU-graded Indian Head Cent? I can't remember the date (and I don't think it was a proof), but that coin is drop-dead gorgeous. I could look at that sucker all day long! I hope you know which one I'm talking about

[e1cnr]

I love your FLASH index

 

 

we mostly agree which coins are beautiful, but I feel "most" beautiful still comes down to individual personal preference.

[WingedLiberty1]

Krypto, thanks for the clarification that the print was on the slab plastic. I would love to see a great photo of this coin.

 

brg, this is the PCGS AU58 Indian you are talking about. I bought this from The Penny Lady for $330 in 2011. The vibrant color pops at a certain tipped viewing angles, from other angles it's more normal/typical looking. Maybe this might be a high ranker in the "most beautiful circulated business strike" category Interesting that this looker actually shows some lovely "elevation chromatics" on the obverse -- something that I have tended to see only on bag toned Morgans.

 

[kryptonitecomics]

Krypto, thanks for the clarification that the print was on the slab plastic. I would love to see a great photo of this coin.

 

brg, this is the PCGS AU58 Indian you are talking about. I bought this from The Penny Lady for $330 in 2011. The vibrant color pops at a certain tipped viewing angles, from other angles it's more normal/typical looking. Maybe this might be a high ranker in the "most beautiful circulated business strike" category Interesting that this looker actually shows some lovely "elevation chromatics" on the obverse -- something that I have tended to see only on bag toned Morgans.

 

 

 

Thats a very typical look for IHC's...I have owned 2 or 3 with very similar toning...

 

 

 

[copper toning]

Krypto, thanks for the clarification that the print was on the slab plastic. I would love to see a great photo of this coin.

 

brg, this is the PCGS AU58 Indian you are talking about. I bought this from The Penny Lady for $330 in 2011. The vibrant color pops at a certain tipped viewing angles, from other angles it's more normal/typical looking. Maybe this might be a high ranker in the "most beautiful circulated business strike" category Interesting that this looker actually shows some lovely "elevation chromatics" on the obverse -- something that I have tended to see only on bag toned Morgans.

 

 

That would look nice next to this one.

 

 

[copper toning]

Krypto, thanks for the clarification that the print was on the slab plastic. I would love to see a great photo of this coin.

 

brg, this is the PCGS AU58 Indian you are talking about. I bought this from The Penny Lady for $330 in 2011. The vibrant color pops at a certain tipped viewing angles, from other angles it's more normal/typical looking. Maybe this might be a high ranker in the "most beautiful circulated business strike" category Interesting that this looker actually shows some lovely "elevation chromatics" on the obverse -- something that I have tended to see only on bag toned Morgans.

 

 

 

Thats a very typical look for IHC's...I have owned 2 or 3 with very similar toning...

 

 

 

 

That is a nice 1901 Shane. Must be why I bought it a HA. How long did you own this coin? Did you sell it on your site and how much if I may ask?

 

Sure wish I could take pics of it like that.

 

 

 

[WingedLiberty1]

i LOVE those examples krypto an copper toning ! Keep em coming.

[AstroTrain]

All those IHC's are very nice!

[robec1347]

This 1884 belonging to Toneddollars is spectacular, but due to slab glare almost impossible to show underlying purple color.

 

 

The 1883 allowed a little glimpse through the slab, but not without some glare artifacts.

 

 

[WingedLiberty1]

Fantastic Indians robec

[johnny9434]

that 1901 really stands out. both are really nice coin

[michael]

After Mark Feld posted his most beautiful CBH thread, and seeing how much fun that was, I was moved to share this ...

 

I was poking around on Heritage and stumbled across a STUNNING 1901 Proof Indian Cent with probably the best obverse toning and color that I have ever seen on any toned Proof Indian.

It was in an NGC PR67RB STAR slab.

 

Heritage Auction (1901)

 

The thing I "fell backwards in my chair over" was the thick florescent green and gold obverse color and the other vibrant contrasting obverse colors all with smooth-as-silk transitions. Of course the reverse of this coin is not nearly as nice as the obverse and actually looks a bit marred to my eye, and I would almost call the reverse un-toned (though clearly there is some slight green color showing through).

 

 

A coin of this year and grade is listed as having an average market (list) value of $2,090 in the NGC/Numismedia guide based on grade and date ...

 

And it sold for $9,987 in August 2012, a 4.8x toning premium, where 15 bidders participated in a heated battle over it.

 

I showed this monster coin to my good friend Robec and he pointed me to another beautiful Proof Indian (ex. D. Blake) that is the highest graded BN Proof Indian by PCGS.

 

It's an 1885 PR67+BN. And is the only known PR67+BN Indian ever graded by PCGS with none higher in the BN color class.

 

The things I love about this second example is the MONSTER two sided coordinated color (I think the reverse is actually better than the obverse) and the visible flow lines on the obverse (WOW).

 

 

This second beautiful Proof Indian sold "SHOCKINGLY" for only $4,025 in Feb 2011. Amazingly enough this coin is listed as having a market value of $5,000 in the PCGS Price Guide.

So this monster sold for 20% UNDER the guide price ... a toning premium of less than 1 (only 0.8x). This was the bargain of the decade! Probably the fact that only 5 people were bidding had an impact.

 

Heritage Auction Link (1885 PF67+BN)

 

Where were we all in Feb 2011!!! We must have all been "asleep at the wheel" to miss this one (Clearly we need Mark Feld to give us a heads up, I suppose)

 

This coin currently resides in the PCGS Registry of Withers/Ashley, so I can only assume that he/she must have bought it for this bargain price ($4k) back in 2011.

 

By the way if you want to see a BEAUTIFUL registry set of gorgeous toned Indians, take a gander at:

 

The Withers Collection under Ashley's Sets

 

Comparing these two Indians is interesting and it's difficult to determine which coin to crown as the "Most Beautiful" Proof Indian. Certainly we are comparing apples to oranges here since one is PCGS graded and one is NGC graded (would either service cross the other and at what grade?). The next fly in the ointment is the 1885 Indian was photographed out-of-the-slab by PCGS TrueView, while the 1901 was shot through-the-slab by the Heritage photographer (I am guessing). Still it's clear how beautiful and unique that 1901 is.

 

Finally I thought I would trying scoring both coins in my recently developed Flash Index system which attempts to score the beauty of colorfully toned coins for ranking purposes. Flash Index scores range from 0.0 to 10.0, and any score above 9.0 is considered to be monster "Gold Level" toning. Just for reference, I have scored very few coins above 9.5, and have yet to find a perfect 10.0.

 

I did want to note that in the Flash Index scoring, if one side is considered "untoned", the scores of the toned side duplicate in the top four color categories, that is why there are x's in the first four color categories for the reverse side of the 1901. This is done so that coins with one monster side and one untoned side (as the case with a large number of bag toned Morgans) can still achieve a high score. This is born out in market prices where a single sided monster color coin is not punished for having an untoned side. However other attributes (other than color) of the untoned side can affect the score -- as the case with the 1901 where the reverse attributes knocked off 4 points.

 

So how did these two coins score in Flash?

 

It was a tie! Why am I not surprised?

 

The obverse toning scored perfect on the 1901, and the reverse scored perfect on the 1885.

 

 

 

In terms of the prices these coins recently sold at. I think the 1901 is nearly fully valued at $10,000. However with it being so beautiful, I wouldn't be surprised if some deep pocketed collector was willing to pay $12,000 or more for this someday. It's a unique and eye-catching piece.

 

Clearly the 1885 PR67+BN sold way too low at a bit over $4k. I think fair market value might be (or should be) closer to $8,000 or perhaps higher. However I doubt this would be for sale at any price for many years.

 

It doesn't really surprise me too much that the 1901 sold for so much more than the 1885. Since obverse toning takes precedence over reverse toning, and the 1901 has the best obverse toning I have ever seen on any Proof Indian. That being said the 1885 sold WAY TOO CHEAP at $4k in 2011.

 

But in any case, both coins are stunningly beautiful and I would call this a TIE as to which one is more beautiful or striking.

 

Too close to call for me. Which is your favorite?

 

And if you have some other Proof Indians that you think are better or at least on the same level as these two, please post. I am sure I have only seen a fraction of what is out there.

 

the 1901 is a monster and is also a true 67++++ also green is the rarest color in my opinion on a proof indian

 

the 1885 is an extremely subpar coin as compaired to the 1901 in my opinion and the 1885 is overgraded to boot as there are too many fly specks on the obverse of the 1885 to call this coin a superb gem proof -------------- my opinion

 

i dont want the 1885 at any price (yes it is worth a DECENT price though) BUT NOT TO ME

 

and the 1901 whomever got that coin got a good deal in my opinion

[michael]

also the 1901 is a no brainer totally original toned coin 100%

 

the 1885 i am not totally convinced

[WingedLiberty1]

I would like to see if that 1901 would cross to PCGS (Secure Plus so it could be sniffed) ... then have an out-of-slab TrueView photo made so at least then we could compare apples to apples. The slab glare is definitely impacting the image of the 1901.

 

And certainly the fact that the 1901 was shot through the slab plastic is a testament to just how beautiful and eye-catching it is. It certainly caught my eye when I first saw it.

 

I also agree that this sort of green toning that is displayed on the 1901 is very rare. I don't recall seeing any other toned copper proof coin that had this sort of fluorescent green toning -- at least this intense (and seemingly thick and reflective (light catching)).

 

That could be good (in that it's a unique rarity) or bad (in that it was cooked by a very talented cooker and would never occur naturally). However in the latter case, if someone does have the ability to cook something like this, why wouldn't they produce 100 more examples just like it, and slowly introduce them into the marketplace and make a killing. The fact that I am not seeing more of these out there, really leads me to believe that the 1901 was not cooked but is a unique rarity.

 

However I would think that perhaps PCGS would downgrade the 1901 a bit due to the marred reverse, grading the obverse PR67 or PR67+ but the reverse achieving a PR65 or so ... perhaps netting a PR66 or PR66+. However my grading ability is suspect at best.

 

Certainly just in terms of obverse POP, the 1901 wins by a mile ... and if it looks this good through-the-slab plastic, how off the charts would it be out-of-the-slab?

 

[PLM]

Those are both amazingly beautiful toned IHC. Not sure which I like better but the flow lines on the 1885 are awesome.

[michael]

the 1901 is not unique in the past 48+ years i have seen approx. 2 dozen as nice as the 1901 with the same coloration

 

it is a rare coin looking like it does though in its condition

 

my grade 66+++ and i can easily see it in a 67 holder but politics being as it may

 

pcgs 66 or 66+

[mkman123]

Why does a ngc have to cross to pcgs? Do people feel ngc grades atd coins? I've seen questionable pcgs coins. This whole crossing,etc makes this hobby not very fun. Who wants to be told....."your ngc pr67+ is probably just a pcgs 65. I don't think pcgs is better than ngc but its being touted way too much.

[jpcienkus]

Why does a ngc have to cross to pcgs? Do people feel ngc grades atd coins? I've seen questionable pcgs coins. This whole crossing,etc makes this hobby not very fun. Who wants to be told....."your ngc pr67+ is probably just a pcgs 65. I don't think pcgs is better than ngc but its being touted way too much.

 

Funny you say that. After reading many threads lately, I was getting the idea that PCGS grading is too inconsistent. On top of that, when I attended my first coin show a couple weeks ago, the dealers I talked to also preferred NGC. This whole slabbing game is awful confusing for a newbie like me.

[michael]

#6377866 - Today at 03:14 AM Re: The Most Beautiful Proof Indian Cent I've ever seen (... or two?) [Re: michael]

mkman123 mkman123

Chatzilla

 

 

Registered: 11/05/08

Posts: 2280 Why does a ngc have to cross to pcgs? Do people feel ngc grades atd coins? I've seen questionable pcgs coins. This whole crossing,etc makes this hobby not very fun. Who wants to be told....."your ngc pr67+ is probably just a pcgs 65. I don't think pcgs is better than ngc but its being touted way too much.

 

 

#6378018 - Today at 07:11 AM Re: The Most Beautiful Proof Indian Cent I've ever seen (... or two?) [Re: mkman123]

jpcienkus jpcienkus

Collector is an understatement.

 

 

Registered: 12/15/12

Posts: 119 Originally Posted By: mkman123

Why does a ngc have to cross to pcgs? Do people feel ngc grades atd coins? I've seen questionable pcgs coins. This whole crossing,etc makes this hobby not very fun. Who wants to be told....."your ngc pr67+ is probably just a pcgs 65. I don't think pcgs is better than ngc but its being touted way too much.

 

Funny you say that. After reading many threads lately, I was getting the idea that PCGS grading is too inconsistent. On top of that, when I attended my first coin show a couple weeks ago, the dealers I talked to also preferred NGC. This whole slabbing game is awful confusing for a newbie like me.

 

 

AS TO THE ABOVE I TOTALLY AGREE (thumbs u BUT THE MARKET SAYZ OTHERWISE AT LEAST TODAY

 

find your own nitch and figure out what you like

 

and remember this

 

IF you are considering buying a slabbed coin ask yourself this question is this coin worth the same raw?

 

or if the value/demand is greatly diminshed after cracking the coin out of the slab

 

then **LET*** THE*** BUYER*** BEWARE** you can still choose to buy the coin but go into it with both eyes wide open

 

 

[thecoinczar]

I have to agree with you that these proofs are stunning! Thanks for posting them. I am also in agreement that their toning are practically unique for Indian Cents. The toning on each cent is virtually equal in my opinion, but I would probably go for the 1901 due to the fact that collectors prefer the toning on the obverse of the coin. Heck, I would take either one in a second if I had the means to acquire one. I am strongly attracted to toned coins and these that you posted are making me drool!!! At the same time a mint state Morgan Dollar completely white & brilliant can be truly breathtaking...

[rrantique]

Fantastic Indians robec

 

 

(worship)