• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

A prediction and some thoughts about some Cardinal coins coming up for auction

Started by therealanaconda-migration,

111 posts in this topic

therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Mark:

 

You stated: "...in the case of Heritage, at least, a consignor cannot bid on his own lots. And that is regardless of whether there is a reserve."

 

Really? That's strange since Heritage's terms and conditions specifically state that consignor's can bid on their own coins:

 

"13...For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the 'Minimum Bid' for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Mark:

 

You stated: "...in the case of Heritage, at least, a consignor cannot bid on his own lots. And that is regardless of whether there is a reserve."

 

Really? That's strange since Heritage's terms and conditions specifically state that consignor's can bid on their own coins:

 

"13...For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the 'Minimum Bid' for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."

 

I have inadvertently attempted to bid on my own coins before - trying to place a low bid, in order to mark a particular lot that I liked, without realizing it was mine. And in each case, a message popped up, indicating somethimg to the effect that I was the consignor and was prohibited from placing a bid.

 

So, based on the quoted terms of sale and my personal experience, it appears that a consignor can bid on his own lot via floor bids, but not via the Internet.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Here are your questions and my answers (and my answers are only my opinions and are not to be construed as legal advice) :

 

1) "in situations where the consignor 're-purchases' the lot, does that necessarily mean there was or wasn't a reserve?"

 

The consignor can re-purchase a lot when there is a reserve and also when there is no reserve, so a consignor's repurchasing of a lot will not indicate whether or not the lot was offered with or without a reserve.

 

2) "if a coin is offered at 'no reserve', is the consignor allowed to bid on it?"

 

Yes, the consignor is allowed to bid on an item he consigned even if the coin offered is offered at 'no reserve'.

 

3) "if a coin is offered with reserve, is the consignor allowed to bid on it, or must the auction house do so on his behalf?"

 

If a coin is offered with reserve, the consignor is allowed to bid on it or he can have the auction house bid on it for him.

 

Also, while you didn't ask me, I see no reason why the auction house and the consignor could not agree by contract, to have a proxy (someone that isn't the consignor nor the auction house but who represents the consignor) bid on the coin on behalf of the consignor, and the consignor and the auction house could agree that in the event of the proxy's winning bid, the buyer's premium is different that that charged to regular bidders.

 

Note: I'm not saying that Stack's Bowers or anyone else like their past or future consignors have done or will do any particular thing(s). I have zero experience with them. I'm just stating my opinion about what would appear to me to be legal (and therefore arguably ethical, since all of this is part of their public terms and conditions) according only to their terms and conditions. I also do not know what laws and case law pertain to their auctions.

 

Terms and Conditions of Stack's Bowers

 

 

I don't know what Stacks' policy is, but in the case of Heritage, at least, a consignor cannot bid on his own lots. And that is regardless of whether there is a reserve.

So much of what of you are discussing is probably speculative. I prefer to address scenarios with established factual parameters. But that is probably because I am not as imaginative as you are. And I say that sincerely and as a compliment.

 

Thanks for the compliment.

 

I must be living in a different dimension than you are. I say that because I didn't do any speculating in my post that you quote.

 

Maybe you missed this part where I specifically state I'm not doing any speculating:

 

"Note: I'm not saying that Stack's Bowers or anyone else like their past or future consignors have done or will do any particular thing(s)."

 

 

The speculating was with respect to what a consignor to a Stack's sale can do. Because, the language you quoted from their terms of sale seems to be ambiguous.

 

We and other posters can speculate about how or if a non reserved coin can fail to sell. But we are only guessing, without knowing specifically what the auction house allows as part of a given consignment agreement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Quite frankly, I'm not surprised to end up concluding that bidders can bid on their coins at a "No reserve" auction. It makes sense, just like I suspected from the beginning, which is why I asked Mr. Logies if some of the coins might not get sold.

 

It behooves the auction company and the consignors to market the coins in such a way as to maximize the number of excited bidders who participate in the auction. Anyone who assumes no reserve auctions are always unprotected sales to the highest bidder that isn't the consignor is just making an assumption that they don't have to; none of the terms and conditions are secret.

 

And remember, there is probably significant motive for the consignor to not be too aggresive in protecting the coin; I'm pretty confident that you can't just stick an expensive coin into an auction and go fishing for a generous buyer, and if you don't find one, you just go on your merry way with no financial consequence.

 

The auction company is going to get compensated one way or another for going to the trouble of promoting the auction of your coins and for giving you value and benefit in the form of having an opportunity to sell your coins.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Here are your questions and my answers (and my answers are only my opinions and are not to be construed as legal advice) :

 

1) "in situations where the consignor 're-purchases' the lot, does that necessarily mean there was or wasn't a reserve?"

 

The consignor can re-purchase a lot when there is a reserve and also when there is no reserve, so a consignor's repurchasing of a lot will not indicate whether or not the lot was offered with or without a reserve.

 

2) "if a coin is offered at 'no reserve', is the consignor allowed to bid on it?"

 

Yes, the consignor is allowed to bid on an item he consigned even if the coin offered is offered at 'no reserve'.

 

3) "if a coin is offered with reserve, is the consignor allowed to bid on it, or must the auction house do so on his behalf?"

 

If a coin is offered with reserve, the consignor is allowed to bid on it or he can have the auction house bid on it for him.

 

Also, while you didn't ask me, I see no reason why the auction house and the consignor could not agree by contract, to have a proxy (someone that isn't the consignor nor the auction house but who represents the consignor) bid on the coin on behalf of the consignor, and the consignor and the auction house could agree that in the event of the proxy's winning bid, the buyer's premium is different that that charged to regular bidders.

 

Note: I'm not saying that Stack's Bowers or anyone else like their past or future consignors have done or will do any particular thing(s). I have zero experience with them. I'm just stating my opinion about what would appear to me to be legal (and therefore arguably ethical, since all of this is part of their public terms and conditions) according only to their terms and conditions. I also do not know what laws and case law pertain to their auctions.

 

Terms and Conditions of Stack's Bowers

 

 

I don't know what Stacks' policy is, but in the case of Heritage, at least, a consignor cannot bid on his own lots. And that is regardless of whether there is a reserve.

So much of what of you are discussing is probably speculative. I prefer to address scenarios with established factual parameters. But that is probably because I am not as imaginative as you are. And I say that sincerely and as a compliment.

 

Thanks for the compliment.

 

I must be living in a different dimension than you are. I say that because I didn't do any speculating in my post that you quote.

 

Maybe you missed this part where I specifically state I'm not doing any speculating:

 

"Note: I'm not saying that Stack's Bowers or anyone else like their past or future consignors have done or will do any particular thing(s)."

 

 

The speculating was with respect to what a consignor to a Stack's sale can do. Because, the language you quoted from their terms of sale seems to be ambiguous.

 

We and other posters can speculate about how or if a non reserved coin can fail to sell. But we are only guessing, without knowing specifically what the auction house allows as part of a given consignment agreement.

 

When the terms and conditions say: "A Consignor that bids on their own lots in the Auction Sale ...", and nowhere in the entire terms and conditions is a distinction made with regard to lots offered "No reserve" or "with reserve", and nowhere in the terms and conditions is it stated that consignors are not permitted to bid on their coins in no reserve auctions, then, in my opinion, the consignor can bid on the coins, even if they're offered "No reserve".

 

I'm not speculating about my opinion. I know what my opinon is. I'm not speculating on what has happened or what will happen. I am only presenting hard facts to you; what the terms and conditions say and what my opinion is.

 

Now, stay tuned, I just got off the phone with Stack's Bowers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I called Stack's Bowers and asked them if a consignor can bid on his own coins if they are offered "No reserve".

 

The Stack's Bowers representative said that yes, consignors can bid on their coins even if offered in a no reserve sale.

 

He went on to state that they do not encourage it because, in his words "it defeats the point of offering the coins without a reserve." He said that the consignor would have to pay the full buyer's premium if they won a lot as a bidder instead of paying the reduced fee of 10% in the case of a coin that didn't meet a reserve.

 

He also said that if they saw that a consignor was bidding on his own coins they would probably call him up and encourage him to place reserves so that he doesn't end up getting stuck with the higher buyer's fees.

 

He also said that they can't prevent a buyer from bidding on his coins through a proxy because anyone can bid in their sales and how would they know whether or not the buyer was using a proxy.

 

Again, the rep clearly stated that consignors can bid on their own coins even if offered in a no reserve sale.

 

None of this surprises me. It makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I called Stack's Bowers and asked them if a consignor can bid on his own coins if they are offered "No reserve".

 

The Stack's Bowers representative said that yes, consignors can bid on their coins even if offered in a no reserve sale.

 

He went on to state that they do not encourage it because, in his words "it defeats the point of offering the coins without a reserve." He said that the consignor would have to pay the full buyer's premium if they won a lot as a bidder instead of paying the reduced fee of 10% in the case of a coin that didn't meet a reserve.

 

He also said that if they saw that a consignor was bidding on his own coins they would probably call him up and encourage him to place reserves so that he doesn't end up getting stuck with the higher buyer's fees.

 

He also said that they can't prevent a buyer from bidding on his coins through a proxy because anyone can bid in their sales and how would they know whether or not the buyer was using a proxy.

 

Again, the rep clearly stated that consignors can bid on their own coins even if offered in a no reserve sale.

 

None of this surprises me. It makes sense.

 

Thanks, now we have it indirectly from the horse's mouth. This thread would have been a lot shorter, albeit, less interesting, had you called them and reported back sooner. ;)

 

Also, as has been noted, if a reserve is placed and not met, that is typically far less costly to the consignor that if he doesn't place a reserve, but bids and ends up as high ("winning") bidder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Here's a really good video which was filmed in 2010 regarding the Cardinal Foundation's purchase of the 1794 dollar, however which was not put up on Youtube until just this month.

 

Martin Logies starts off by talking about what the Foundation has done and does with regard to popularizing early American coinage.

 

 

In the video he points out that the purchase price was actually more than 7.85 million.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
I came close on my prediction of the chain cent predicting 1.1 million. I overestimated the wreath cent at $.85 million. (I updated my original predictions after Mr. Logies' information.)

 

 

Not really....your original prediction, before changing, and after seeing some bids posted, was 650K. That you changed to 1.1 Mil is not exactly a prediction.

Predictions are one time shots. I do give credit to you for modifying your position when faced with overwhelming facts that you were probably originally wrong, and wrong by a very large margin. Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. :preach:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
In your world predictions are one time shots. In my world, they're not.

 

 

Of that, I am quite certain.

 

I predict that your predictions will never be accurate predictions, unless changed in real time after receiving factual information that contradicts your original predictions. :whee:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
By the way, the bid that i saw on the chain cent was less than $550,000, which is still what it is listed at. I didn't increase my prediction based on bids.

 

What were your predictions?

 

No reason to protest and/or justify. The point has been made. Nothing wrong with admitting a prediction was an oops.

 

I don't predict or tread in areas that I am not capable of doing so with reasonable and logical conclusions. I admit I know nothing about nothing, and I am comfortable with that knowledge. :cloud9:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted

On the 1794 dollar the bidding went from five million five hundred thousand directly to 8.5 million without all the inbetween increments. And then, it stopped. Very strange.

 

Anyway, my prediction (or whatever you want to call it, Mr. Curliss), on the 1794 Dollar was off by about fifty percent.

 

I was very, very close on two coins, too low on the third and way too low on the last.

 

Looks like a new world record at 8.5 million plus the juice.

 

My prediction is now that the new owner of the 1794 will want to stay anonymous. I would too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
On the 1794 dollar the bidding went from five million five hundred thousand directly to 8.5 million without all the inbetween increments. And then, it stopped. Very strange.

 

Anyway, my prediction (or whatever you want to call it, Mr. Curliss), on the 1794 Dollar was off by about fifty percent.

 

I was very, very close on two coins, too low on the third and way too low on the last.

 

Looks like a new world record at 8.5 million plus the juice.

 

My prediction is now that the new owner of the 1794 will want to stay anonymous. I would too.

 

There's nothing strange about a large jump (thereby bypassing established increments) in the price of an auction coin. That occurs when there are two or more bidders who have entered bids (via phone, agent or whatever) significantly above the current bid.

 

In this case, it sounds as if there was one bidder at $8 million plus, and another who was even higher than that. In such cases, the bidding needs to be jumped to a level at which the price meets, or, more likely, exceeds the second highest bid. If the bid level is not jumped in such a fashion and the coin sells at or for less than the second highest bid, each of the top two bidders will think they have won the coin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
therealanaconda-migration

therealanaconda-migration

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Gotcha. Funny that I watched almost all the lots before the 1794 Dollar and that kind of big jump (relatively speaking) didn't happen in any of those lots but please know............I am totally not an experienced auction buyer, so what might seem strange to me isn't obviously strange to Mark, and I know Mark has bought many coins at auction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
Posted
Gotcha. Funny that I watched almost all the lots before the 1794 Dollar and that kind of big jump (relatively speaking) didn't happen in any of those lots but please know............I am totally not an experienced auction buyer, so what might seem strange to me isn't obviously strange to Mark, and I know Mark has bought many coins at auction.

 

The jump was intended. Once we ascertained that we were up against the Pogues, the strategy was to ensure that we shock and awed them. As it turns out, the most we were high were one increment - and it's worth one increment to be the first to break $10M

 

You don't beat the Pogues by being nambie pambies

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing