How common is this dealer practice?

[JIM F.]

How common is it for a dealer who does not have a B&M store to advertise coins that he does not own, but can be found on other dealers' websites at a lower price? I mean the EXACT same coin (same TPG #). I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this, just wondering if this is a common practice or not.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

The practice is not extremely rare, and has been a tactic used for many years.

 

In terms of rarity rating, I'd say the practice is R.5.

[newprepper]

How common is it for a dealer who does not have a B&M store to advertise coins that he does not own, but can be found on other dealers' websites at a lower price? I mean the EXACT same coin (same TPG #). I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this, just wondering if this is a common practice or not.

 

 

Buy the cheaper one, then buy the same coin from him and see what happens

[mikew148]

I don't know that it's unethical but it seems the seller could get himself into a bit of a pickle.

 

What if he sold the coin to you but someone purchased it from the original seller before he could go back and obtain it? What would his excuse be if you already paid him for it? (Sorry, I forgot, someone already bought that coin?)

 

I know the TV shows do a lot of preselling of mint products, but at least they're sure they can obtain the product to complete the sale.

 

Maybe someone with more selling experience could shed some light on this practice.

 

 

[mumu]

I didnt know this happened at all and trying to alert the primary seller is what got me banned on PCGS because just mentioning the reseller's name got Don WIllis in a hissy fit due to some non flattering youtube videos(that the reseller had made).

[kryptonitecomics]

I would never do it and I think it's real shady since you don't own the coin and it's not in your inventory. Others can do as they please but I guarantee you I would not knowingly buy from a dealer who did this.....

[Mozin]

There is no way to stop this practice but to OUT the dealer.

[TomB]

I don't like this practice, but it is common enough.

[coinman_23885]

I would never do it and I think it's real shady since you don't own the coin and it's not in your inventory. Others can do as they please but I guarantee you I would not knowingly buy from a dealer who did this.....

 

This.

[DirtyGoldMan]

I don't like this practice, but it is common enough.

Agree. It's not worth writing home about.

[AstroTrain]

ive seen it done. i saw someone put a coin up for auction on ebay that was for sale by another dealer....awful practice

[ant]

There is no way to stop this practice but to OUT the dealer.

 

 

 

[Old Pueblo]

Cut Out the Middle Man

 

OP

[delta]

Buy the cheaper one, then buy the same coin from him and see what happens

 

Nothing happens. You have no recourse. Any dealer anytime can tell you that a coin you bought from his website yesterday had been previously sold off his website.

[delta]

It doesn't matter what excuse he makes, any excuse will do, or no excuse at all, he merely needs to tell you sorry it was already sold.

 

Even if he actually has the coin in hand, there's no obligation on his part to sell it to you.

 

I don't know that it's unethical but it seems the seller could get himself into a bit of a pickle. What if he sold the coin to you but someone purchased it from the original seller before he could go back and obtain it? What would his excuse be if you already paid him for it? (Sorry, I forgot, someone already bought that coin?)

[mikew148]

It doesn't matter what excuse he makes, any excuse will do, or no excuse at all, he merely needs to tell you sorry it was already sold.

 

Even if he actually has the coin in hand, there's no obligation on his part to sell it to you.

 

If I knew for a fact the seller couldn't produce the coin because he was engaged in this type of business practice, I would have zero confidence that the seller could ever produce anything.

 

It's easy enough to find sellers that sell what they have.

 

 

[DaveG]

I think this practice (of advertising coins for sale that are not actually in your inventory) used to be more common before the Internet.

 

In those days, most dealer's customers were local, so if a dealer had a coin that he didn't think would sell quickly, he might contact a few of his friends in different areas of the country who could offer the coin to their customer bases. That way the coin could be marketed to different customers without "leaving home."

 

I would have thought that this practice died out with the rise of the Internet and the ability to market your coins simultaneously around the world.

 

(The "reverse" version of this is when a collector goes to his dealer and says "I'm looking for XYZ coin." The dealer says "I know a guy who has one, let me ask if it's still for sale.")

[BillJones]

Many dealers consign coins in their inventory to other dealers. It can be a win-win for both sides. If the dealer who takes the consignments can consistently sell the coins the dealer who makes the consignments will be more than happy. For the dealer who takes the consignments he gets to offer a coin without have having to invest his own money in it.

 

When I was dealer I took coins on consignment many times although I did not offer them on the Internet. As for the pricing issues raised here, that is why consumers should comparison shop. Why is it wrong for two sellers to have different prices, one high, one lower, for the same item? You see that all the time for merchandise on the Internet and in stores for that matter. I see DVDs offered for less at Wal-Mart than they are at Target. Each store has its own image and pricing policy. Just because it happens to be the exact same item in the case of coin does not make a difference.

 

[CoinPulsive PCM]

It doesn't matter what excuse he makes, any excuse will do, or no excuse at all, he merely needs to tell you sorry it was already sold.

 

Even if he actually has the coin in hand, there's no obligation on his part to sell it to you.

 

I don't know that it's unethical but it seems the seller could get himself into a bit of a pickle. What if he sold the coin to you but someone purchased it from the original seller before he could go back and obtain it? What would his excuse be if you already paid him for it? (Sorry, I forgot, someone already bought that coin?)

 

Delta,

unless the coin is purchased from a seller on Ebay, you're correct, the seller doesn't have an obligation to sell you the coin, but it is still a bad practice to sell something you don't have.

There are numourous cases on eBay where sellers have canceled and refunded tranactions because they claim they don't have the coin anymore and the buyer leaves negFB.

Selling something you don't own or don't have isn't a good practice if you want to be a reputable seller. Most of these situations end up with some problem and in the end, the only one really damaged by it is the seller.

 

I 100% agree that best choice for the buyer is to cut out the middle man and buy from the cheaper source.

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

[delta]

Hi Dave, I wasn't for a moment condoning that unethical practice of reneging on a sale, just being cynical about it. To me it's not merely rotten but plain disgusting. My point was there's nothing you can do about it, you have no recourse.

 

The potential damage to the seller is none or imperceptible. The nature of the coin business in the U.S. minimizes the damage to the seller, because there are tens of thousands of coin dealers around the country, many of them part-timers or occasional dealers or persons who dabble in all sorts of stuff, and many collectors also wheel and deal as much as they can, plus, there are a million collectors of one kind or another. The result of this enormous dispersion is that if dealers have anything decent to sell, they don't need you, they'll find other buyers easily enough, and if their business practices are unethical, you can't really hurt them by staying away and not buying from them. With maybe the exception of dealers so conspicuously terrible almost everybody knows to avoid them, and even those rats often continue making profits.

 

Once a seller has badly mistreated me, I'll never deal with them again, even if they have something I want, at an attractive price. But realistically, I know it won't measurably hurt their business.

 

Delta, unless the coin is purchased from a seller on Ebay, you're correct, the seller doesn't have an obligation to sell you the coin, but it is still a bad practice to sell something you don't have.

There are numourous cases on eBay where sellers have canceled and refunded tranactions because they claim they don't have the coin anymore and the buyer leaves negFB.

Selling something you don't own or don't have isn't a good practice if you want to be a reputable seller. Most of these situations end up with some problem and in the end, the only one really damaged by it is the seller.

I 100% agree that best choice for the buyer is to cut out the middle man and buy from the cheaper source.

 

Dave

[Raisethis2]

 

 

I think that BillJones answered this one spot on. I think that in most cases a Dealer associate of the coin's owner also advertises the coin to double the exposure (marketing) of the coin on a consignment basis. There has to be a markup to make the consignment pay off.

 

If a customer see's the coin in the second Dealers inventory but didn't see it in the Dealer who owns it''s inventory, a hole in a collection may still need to be filled. I think this one should slide. It's only unethical if the coin's owner is unaware.

 

 

[BillJones]

I will add this:

 

Sometimes my price on consigned material was lower than the price the consignor had marked on it. Everyone has different negotiating skills. Many dealers will take the higher price they regardless. My philosophy was that I wanted many repeat customers. I didn't want to nail a guy because I could. I wanted him to come back and buy more. So I had moderate mark-ups as opposed to "one big score."

[MarkFeld]

Occasionally, I will make arrangements with another dealer, under which we each list one of my coins, on both of our sites at the same time.

 

In such instances, we are careful to avoid large pricing differences, which might reflect badly on the one with a higher listed price.

[BillJones]

Another aspect of this is that some dealers share ownership in some (usually) very expensive coins. They were get together to buy them and each pay a part of the cost. Therefore some coins are owned in partnership and might be offered on the websites of both dealers.

[CoinPulsive PCM]

Hi Dave, I wasn't for a moment condoning that unethical practice of reneging on a sale, just being cynical about it. To me it's not merely rotten but plain disgusting. My point was there's nothing you can do about it, you have no recourse.

 

The potential damage to the seller is none or imperceptible. The nature of the coin business in the U.S. minimizes the damage to the seller, because there are tens of thousands of coin dealers around the country, many of them part-timers or occasional dealers or persons who dabble in all sorts of stuff, and many collectors also wheel and deal as much as they can, plus, there are a million collectors of one kind or another. The result of this enormous dispersion is that if dealers have anything decent to sell, they don't need you, they'll find other buyers easily enough, and if their business practices are unethical, you can't really hurt them by staying away and not buying from them. With maybe the exception of dealers so conspicuously terrible almost everybody knows to avoid them, and even those rats often continue making profits.

 

Once a seller has badly mistreated me, I'll never deal with them again, even if they have something I want, at an attractive price. But realistically, I know it won't measurably hurt their business.

 

Delta, unless the coin is purchased from a seller on Ebay, you're correct, the seller doesn't have an obligation to sell you the coin, but it is still a bad practice to sell something you don't have.

There are numourous cases on eBay where sellers have canceled and refunded tranactions because they claim they don't have the coin anymore and the buyer leaves negFB.

Selling something you don't own or don't have isn't a good practice if you want to be a reputable seller. Most of these situations end up with some problem and in the end, the only one really damaged by it is the seller.

I 100% agree that best choice for the buyer is to cut out the middle man and buy from the cheaper source.

Dave

 

Delta,

I agree and understand that. It is a very bad practice. Realisticly, stuff happens. A large dealer with a large inventory could have mix ups with internet sales and their B&M sales. I was just saying that on eBay, a simple mix up could end up with the buyer leaving harsh negFB that could possibly damage the sellers reputation.

But when a seller has a bad practice of listing items or selling items they do not own or have in hand, their excuses or reasons to why the sale was canceled, can harm future sellers who just have a simple mix up. The buyers first bad experience with a "Bad seller" may have influence on a future purchase with a "good seller."

There is not recourse, except leaving reviews and feedback of the seller IF you can prove that the seller has unethical and bad seller practices. The BBB is very useful to see if others shared a similar experience with you and the seller.

 

When it comes down to if the seller is damaged by buyer feedback and reviews to the point of total loss, I don't think that ever happens, I agree and I have seen examples of when a seller has 50 neg FBs in one month, all with the same issue and complaint, but the seller still has 550 pos FBs in that month.

 

Dave

[illini420]

Could also be possible that the coin was bought from the first dealer and that first dealer just hasn't taken it down from their website yet?

 

 

 

[BillJones]

Could also be possible that the coin was bought from the first dealer and that first dealer just hasn't taken it down from their website yet?

 

 

 

Yes, that happened with the 1851-C gold dollar that is in my collection. I asked the first dealer to whom he sold (actually traded) the coin, and he told me.

[bochiman]

Many dealers consign coins in their inventory to other dealers. It can be a win-win for both sides. If the dealer who takes the consignments can consistently sell the coins the dealer who makes the consignments will be more than happy. For the dealer who takes the consignments he gets to offer a coin without have having to invest his own money in it.

 

When I was dealer I took coins on consignment many times although I did not offer them on the Internet. As for the pricing issues raised here, that is why consumers should comparison shop. Why is it wrong for two sellers to have different prices, one high, one lower, for the same item? You see that all the time for merchandise on the Internet and in stores for that matter. I see DVDs offered for less at Wal-Mart than they are at Target. Each store has its own image and pricing policy. Just because it happens to be the exact same item in the case of coin does not make a difference.

 

Bill, I agree with your outlook above, but the example at the end is flawed, at least imho, for this type of item.

 

The DVD example you are using is for generic items. If you were comparing it to raw, and generic, coins, then that would be fine. However, you are likely comparing it to something more unique...a certain coin, slabbed or not.

 

I've read enough of your posts to know you are very knowledgeable and have a keen eye for the coins. You have posted more than a few times on your coin hunting and how you pass up, even higher graded, items for the looking coin.

 

For your example, if I go to Walmart and you go to Target, and we both buy "The Avengers" DVD, then we both get the exact same thing, no matter the price.

However, if you go to dealer "X" and I go to dealer "Y", and we are both after the 1793 PCGS AU58 1/2cent, serial # 7042839, then only 1 of us will actually get it....even if we both click "PURCHASE" and pay immediately...and our payments are accepted. Right?

 

Yes, I know you are mainly talking about pricing comparisons, but I think that examples should be germaine to the issue at hand and in this case, it is pricing of consigned items where the item should reasonably be considered "1 of a kind" since there is a photo and most likely only similar coins, not completely the same ones.

 

 

Back to the issue brought up in the OP.....I was almost bit by this a few times last year....a dealer with a larger presence had coins listed. I almost bit, even though this dealer doesn't have great photos and has strong retail pricing. I ended up looking around a bit and found the EXACT same coin(s) hundreds of dollars less (one of them was over a grand less), elsewhere. The "elsewhere" was the actual owner of the coin. To his credit, while he still had the coin listed, he had it marked as "currently unavailable", so one couldn't just buy it through his site. Kudos for him.

 

I think the above illustrates your point about shopping around a bit, and I fully agree with you on it.....I wouldn't have initially thought about it, since I am still learning and naïve on what goes on in the dealer world, but someone else gave me that suggestion and it was spot-on.

 

[CoinPulsive PCM]

Many dealers consign coins in their inventory to other dealers. It can be a win-win for both sides. If the dealer who takes the consignments can consistently sell the coins the dealer who makes the consignments will be more than happy. For the dealer who takes the consignments he gets to offer a coin without have having to invest his own money in it.

 

When I was dealer I took coins on consignment many times although I did not offer them on the Internet. As for the pricing issues raised here, that is why consumers should comparison shop. Why is it wrong for two sellers to have different prices, one high, one lower, for the same item? You see that all the time for merchandise on the Internet and in stores for that matter. I see DVDs offered for less at Wal-Mart than they are at Target. Each store has its own image and pricing policy. Just because it happens to be the exact same item in the case of coin does not make a difference.

 

Bill, I agree with your outlook above, but the example at the end is flawed, at least imho, for this type of item.

 

The DVD example you are using is for generic items. If you were comparing it to raw, and generic, coins, then that would be fine. However, you are likely comparing it to something more unique...a certain coin, slabbed or not.

 

I've read enough of your posts to know you are very knowledgeable and have a keen eye for the coins. You have posted more than a few times on your coin hunting and how you pass up, even higher graded, items for the looking coin.

 

For your example, if I go to Walmart and you go to Target, and we both buy "The Avengers" DVD, then we both get the exact same thing, no matter the price.

However, if you go to dealer "X" and I go to dealer "Y", and we are both after the 1793 PCGS AU58 1/2cent, serial # 7042839, then only 1 of us will actually get it....even if we both click "PURCHASE" and pay immediately...and our payments are accepted. Right?

 

Yes, I know you are mainly talking about pricing comparisons, but I think that examples should be germaine to the issue at hand and in this case, it is pricing of consigned items where the item should reasonably be considered "1 of a kind" since there is a photo and most likely only similar coins, not completely the same ones.

 

 

Back to the issue brought up in the OP.....I was almost bit by this a few times last year....a dealer with a larger presence had coins listed. I almost bit, even though this dealer doesn't have great photos and has strong retail pricing. I ended up looking around a bit and found the EXACT same coin(s) hundreds of dollars less (one of them was over a grand less), elsewhere. The "elsewhere" was the actual owner of the coin. To his credit, while he still had the coin listed, he had it marked as "currently unavailable", so one couldn't just buy it through his site. Kudos for him.

 

I think the above illustrates your point about shopping around a bit, and I fully agree with you on it.....I wouldn't have initially thought about it, since I am still learning and naïve on what goes on in the dealer world, but someone else gave me that suggestion and it was spot-on.

 

What if the DVD was a limited edition that was individually numbered for collectors and there were only 500 released?

 

I have seen situations where such item was on eBay with a mark up, the same day that they were released to the public at a venue like FYE or Walmart.

When you talk about "one of a kind," how do you know that the item (coin or anything) is infact, one of a kind? If you saw an Early Half dollar graded MS60 by NGC for sale online, and the seller claimed it is the only one in that grade known, how could you validate that with 100% certainty?

 

Shopping around for the best price or what not is a smart choice. One problem I run into on occasion is the "should I buy it right now at this price, or see if I can find it cheaper and risk a 50/50 chance of finding a cheaper one, or losing the item to someone else."

From a personal experience in respects to Bill's remark on finding a similar product at a Walmart or Target. I once listed on eBay a BIN auction for MIB 2012 Hotwheels cars. I had 100 of them and put the price at $2.79 each. Less than 2 hours after listing the auction, someone messaged me on eBay to tell me Walmart had the same items for $.97. I kindly told him that I am not Walmart, explained to him the eBay fees I have to pay, and told him to buy them at Walmart if he wishes, then I blocked him. My uncle is a wholesale distributor for a company and he gave them to me to sell on eBay.

 

Using that example, heres a hypothetical question: would you message an eBay seller of an item (like the coin the OP refered to) listed it for $X,XXX.XX, to inform them that "John Doe has the same coin for $XXX.XX ?"

Has any dealer here had a situation like that? What did you tell the individual and how did they respond to you?

 

Dave