Call me dumb, but what is CAC

[MarkFeld]

CAC is just as inconsistent as the TPGS. I have seen high stuff beaned and also dreck. :shrug:

 

I disagree. I think CAC is much more consistent.

[physics-fan3.14]

CAC is just as inconsistent as the TPGS. I have seen high stuff beaned and also dreck. :shrug:

 

I disagree. I think CAC is much more consistent.

 

I can recall two coins that had green beans that I thought should not have been in problem free slabs, not to mention with green beans. Both of them were toned PL coins.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

 

I am forced to pay more because that is what the market demands. I am a collector, and so must buy the coins I need - at the prices that I can get them. Do I see a reason that CAC coins trade for more? No. I'm willing to pay for a premium coin - I'm just not going use CAC's vague description to determine whether a coin is a nice coin or not. I'm going to make that decision for myself.

 

Do I see a reason that raw coins trade for less? Yes. In my opinion, the TPG's provide a far more valuable, far more comprehensive service that is worth the price of the service and worth the premium. The TPG's grade the coin, authenticate the coin, note problems, and encase it in a presentable holder. CAC just grades the graders. It seems kind of pointless. Why do I need to pay someone to look at a coin graded MS-65 and say "Yup, that coin is MS-65 alright. And a nice one, too." I can grade for myself, and I can determine if it is accurately graded - I don't need to pay someone else to do it for me. There are tons of very nice coins that the TPG's have graded and certified that will never get the green bean - coins that are solid for the grade and worth their price. But, collectors seem to shun them and treat them differently just because they don't have a green bean.

 

I just don't understand why CAC is necessary, and why its so popular. Are collectors in general just that uncomfortable with grading coins for themselves?

[halfpint]

 

I can grade for myself, and I can determine if it is accurately graded - I don't need to pay someone else to do it for me.

 

...yes but there are a lot of people that can't, for example heirs of collectors. this is where the CAC and TPGS can be very beneficial. jmo.

[MarkFeld]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

 

I am forced to pay more because that is what the market demands. I am a collector, and so must buy the coins I need - at the prices that I can get them. Do I see a reason that CAC coins trade for more? No. I'm willing to pay for a premium coin - I'm just not going use CAC's vague description to determine whether a coin is a nice coin or not. I'm going to make that decision for myself.

 

Do I see a reason that raw coins trade for less? Yes. In my opinion, the TPG's provide a far more valuable, far more comprehensive service that is worth the price of the service and worth the premium. The TPG's grade the coin, authenticate the coin, note problems, and encase it in a presentable holder. CAC just grades the graders. It seems kind of pointless. Why do I need to pay someone to look at a coin graded MS-65 and say "Yup, that coin is MS-65 alright. And a nice one, too." I can grade for myself, and I can determine if it is accurately graded - I don't need to pay someone else to do it for me. There are tons of very nice coins that the TPG's have graded and certified that will never get the green bean - coins that are solid for the grade and worth their price. But, collectors seem to shun them and treat them differently just because they don't have a green bean.

 

I just don't understand why CAC is necessary, and why its so popular. Are collectors in general just that uncomfortable with grading coins for themselves?

 

I can grade coins for myself, too. But I can still learn quite a bit from CAC. And most people who think they can't also learn from CAC are fooling themselves.

[AstroTrain]

Happy New Year! I'm truly enjoying the debate!

[AstroTrain]

I suppose I understand both arguments and if I needed to, I could justify both....but.at least now I can understand better.

[breakdown-migration]

I can grade coins for myself, too. But I can still learn quite a bit from CAC. And most people who think they can't also learn from CAC are fooling themselves.

 

This is spot on. Anyone who thinks they can learn to grade by themselves is delusional. See Mark Feld's Collecting Tip No. 3: find a mentor, make sure he or she is highly qualified and then spend a lot of time going over coins with the mentor. You can't learn to grade well in a vacuum, no matter how many coins you look at.

 

[BROADSTRUCK]

Does CAC publish prices somewhere of what they pay on buying coins they stickered?

[newprepper]

Great question

[lehigh96]

What the CAC does is very simple, straight forward, and well articulated on their website. The confusion comes from those who have made a negative conclusion about the CAC and follow an agenda designed specifically to discredit the CAC.

 

Ignoring the reality of how "well articulated on their website" CAC is, the fact remains that there is a significant percentage of people - computer savvy people - who can't figure out exactly what CAC does. The marketing of CAC is very poor and I say that not just as a coin person, but as someone who spends a significant portion of his day working in marketing and I have an MBA in marketing. A super simple test would be for them to go to a major show and ask people at random, "Can you explain what CAC does?" I bet only a very small percentage could come up with an answer that is close to what CAC thinks it does.

 

As for their well articulated website, let's look at their front page:

 

Whether you're a novice or advanced collector, you know that quality is what determines the value of a rare coin.

 

However, within any certified coin grade, not all coins are "solid" quality coins.

 

Now there's an easy way to identify coins that are solid for the grade - a CAC verification sticker.

 

CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community who recognized the need for a higher level of grading.

 

With CAC, prices for the solid quality coins can be untethered from the lesser quality counterparts.

 

That is what they want to get across to the marketplace. That's 5 sentences of babble with keywords that are meaningless, but try to sound good. That is their biggest problem. They cannot explain themselves to the marketplace.

 

I need more info on CAC, so let me click on the FAQ: Recently, though it [gold] had risen to over $800 per ounce... Seems a little outdated to me.

 

I'm not bashing CAC because I don't think their service is necessary. I'm not trying to bash them at all here. I'm just pointing out that they have failed to deliver their message to the coin community. Their marketing efforts are not paying off in terms of brand understanding. Don't ask me, ask other collectors.

 

So your major problem with the CAC is they are not marketing geniuses? I will agree that this is what belongs on the front page, because this is what they do:

 

"For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker"

 

And that is all they do. Everything else is just an after effect. It seems pretty simple to me.

[newprepper]

So is a "B" a green sticker and an "A" a gold?

[physics-fan3.14]

So is a "B" a green sticker and an "A" a gold?

 

No, an A and a B are both green. A gold sticker is awarded if CAC thinks the grade exceeds that on the holder by at last 1 point.

[MarkFeld]

Does CAC publish prices somewhere of what they pay on buying coins they stickered?

 

CAC bid prices appear on an electronic rare coin trading exchange - CoinPlex.

I have also seen them posted on Certified Coin Exchange at different times. Each exchange charges a monthly membership fee, however.

[lehigh96]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

 

I am forced to pay more because that is what the market demands. I am a collector, and so must buy the coins I need - at the prices that I can get them. Do I see a reason that CAC coins trade for more? No. I'm willing to pay for a premium coin - I'm just not going use CAC's vague description to determine whether a coin is a nice coin or not. I'm going to make that decision for myself.

 

Do I see a reason that raw coins trade for less? Yes. In my opinion, the TPG's provide a far more valuable, far more comprehensive service that is worth the price of the service and worth the premium. The TPG's grade the coin, authenticate the coin, note problems, and encase it in a presentable holder. CAC just grades the graders. It seems kind of pointless. Why do I need to pay someone to look at a coin graded MS-65 and say "Yup, that coin is MS-65 alright. And a nice one, too." I can grade for myself, and I can determine if it is accurately graded - I don't need to pay someone else to do it for me. There are tons of very nice coins that the TPG's have graded and certified that will never get the green bean - coins that are solid for the grade and worth their price. But, collectors seem to shun them and treat them differently just because they don't have a green bean.

 

I just don't understand why CAC is necessary, and why its so popular. Are collectors in general just that uncomfortable with grading coins for themselves?

 

Jason, while you may have supreme confidence in your grading skills across every series of coin, I promise that most collectors don't. I feel very comfortable grading most 20th century silver and nickel coinage. But when you enter the realm of copper, gold, or old silver, my confidence level goes way down. I don't have much experience in these areas and I highly doubt that I could perform incremental grading with any level of consistency on my own. So if I wanted to my buy a gem Saint, I would certainly like the coin to have a CAC sticker. It doesn't mean I don't know how to grade coins. It means that I understand my limitations.

[jom]

Does CAC publish prices somewhere of what they pay on buying coins they stickered?

 

CAC bid prices appear on an electronic rare coin trading exchange - CoinPlex.

I have also seen them posted on Certified Coin Exchange at different times. Each exchange charges a monthly membership fee, however.

 

I could be wrong but couldn't you just call them up and ask?

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

Does CAC publish prices somewhere of what they pay on buying coins they stickered?

 

CAC bid prices appear on an electronic rare coin trading exchange - CoinPlex.

I have also seen them posted on Certified Coin Exchange at different times. Each exchange charges a monthly membership fee, however.

 

I could be wrong but couldn't you just call them up and ask?

 

jom

 

Yes, but the question I answered asked about published prices.

[wheat'swheats]

The coins which I have sold toCAC have all been between Bid and ask and closer to ask

wheat

[dimefreak]

liked them better when they were a smaller operation. I see more "headscratchers" as of late. I suppose there is no real way of knowing when the stickers were applied. It might just be that there are more CAC coins available now. Grading is subjective... Not everybody is going to agree with a certain grade

[MarkFeld]

liked them better when they were a smaller operation. I see more "headscratchers" as of late. I suppose there is no real way of knowing when the stickers were applied. It might just be that there are more CAC coins available now. Grading is subjective... Not everybody is going to agree with a certain grade

 

To my knowledge, they are the same sized "operation" now as when they first started. And, since they are imperfect, it makes (pun intended) perfect sense, that the greater number of coins reviewed, the greater number of "headscratchers" there will be.

[jom]

liked them better when they were a smaller operation. I see more "headscratchers" as of late. I suppose there is no real way of knowing when the stickers were applied. It might just be that there are more CAC coins available now. Grading is subjective... Not everybody is going to agree with a certain grade

 

To my knowledge, they are the same sized "operation" now as when they first started. And, since they are imperfect, it makes (pun intended) perfect sense, that the greater number of coins reviewed, the greater number of "headscratchers" there will be.

 

I had a "headscratcher" just last week that, in my experience, was unusual. I called JA and he explained his side of it. Usually, that means it is something I overlooked (other rejections have really been a coin I kinda knew they'd reject but I sent it anyway). When I got the coin back I looked at it again and I still can't believe they didn't sticker it BASED on JA's explanation. This is really the first time I can't agree with their evaluation.

 

jom

[MJ]

Double post.

 

MJ

[MJ]

I find it hard to believe that someone as numismatically adept as yourself has failed to see the disparity of market prices between CAC and non-CAC coins.

 

It is obvious that the CAC sticker inspires collector confidence, which does increase liquidity and resale value.

I'm fully aware that CAC coins trade for premiums. I'm saying - I don't see why I should pay a premium for a CAC coin. I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a nice coin, but I can view the coin and make up my own mind, I don't need someone else telling me that this coin is nice for the grade or not. It's just another crutch for people who can't grade. What I'm saying is - I'm not convinced I need to pay CAC for their services, and I'm not convinced that just because a coin has a green sticker it is worth so much more than one which doesn't.

Quick question: Would you pay more for a certified coin than a raw coin? If so, why?

If he wouldn't he's going to be outbid on it every time because there are too many suckers who would pay more.

 

I am forced to pay more because that is what the market demands. I am a collector, and so must buy the coins I need - at the prices that I can get them. Do I see a reason that CAC coins trade for more? No. I'm willing to pay for a premium coin - I'm just not going use CAC's vague description to determine whether a coin is a nice coin or not. I'm going to make that decision for myself.

 

Do I see a reason that raw coins trade for less? Yes. In my opinion, the TPG's provide a far more valuable, far more comprehensive service that is worth the price of the service and worth the premium. The TPG's grade the coin, authenticate the coin, note problems, and encase it in a presentable holder. CAC just grades the graders. It seems kind of pointless. Why do I need to pay someone to look at a coin graded MS-65 and say "Yup, that coin is MS-65 alright. And a nice one, too." I can grade for myself, and I can determine if it is accurately graded - I don't need to pay someone else to do it for me. There are tons of very nice coins that the TPG's have graded and certified that will never get the green bean - coins that are solid for the grade and worth their price. But, collectors seem to shun them and treat them differently just because they don't have a green bean.

 

I just don't understand why CAC is necessary, and why its so popular. Are collectors in general just that uncomfortable with grading coins for themselves?

 

I can grade coins for myself, too. But I can still learn quite a bit from CAC. And most people who think they can't also learn from CAC are fooling themselves.

 

Bingo. MJ

[gmarguli]

liked them better when they were a smaller operation. I see more "headscratchers" as of late. I suppose there is no real way of knowing when the stickers were applied. It might just be that there are more CAC coins available now. Grading is subjective... Not everybody is going to agree with a certain grade

 

To my knowledge, they are the same sized "operation" now as when they first started. And, since they are imperfect, it makes (pun intended) perfect sense, that the greater number of coins reviewed, the greater number of "headscratchers" there will be.

 

Which is why we need someone out there to review CAC stickered coins. We don't want to get stuck with their head scratchers! Also, we need someone to break down their A from their B coins. And then after enough coins get broken down into A/B categories, we need to break those A & B tiers down into the nice A vs blah A and nice B vs blah B categories. We can call it learning from them!

[AnkurJ]

 

I had a "headscratcher" just last week that, in my experience, was unusual. I called JA and he explained his side of it. Usually, that means it is something I overlooked (other rejections have really been a coin I kinda knew they'd reject but I sent it anyway). When I got the coin back I looked at it again and I still can't believe they didn't sticker it BASED on JA's explanation. This is really the first time I can't agree with their evaluation.

 

jom

 

What coin was it?

[MarkFeld]

liked them better when they were a smaller operation. I see more "headscratchers" as of late. I suppose there is no real way of knowing when the stickers were applied. It might just be that there are more CAC coins available now. Grading is subjective... Not everybody is going to agree with a certain grade

 

To my knowledge, they are the same sized "operation" now as when they first started. And, since they are imperfect, it makes (pun intended) perfect sense, that the greater number of coins reviewed, the greater number of "headscratchers" there will be.

 

Which is why we need someone out there to review CAC stickered coins. We don't want to get stuck with their head scratchers! Also, we need someone to break down their A from their B coins. And then after enough coins get broken down into A/B categories, we need to break those A & B tiers down into the nice A vs blah A and nice B vs blah B categories. We can call it learning from them!

 

Greg, I will respond to your post, facetious, though it appears. CAC sometimes catches problems on coins, which I missed. I am not embarrassed to state that. And my guess is that there might be some other submitters who also miss problems and which CAC catches.

[DaveG]

Personally, I like to have people who know more than I do look at my coins and offer their opinions.

 

I've found that I always learn a lot when I do this.

 

There are certainly other people besides CAC whose opinions I respect. (For example, as far as I'm concerned, TomB could open a CAC-competitor.)

 

Do I always agree? No, but I always learn something.

 

 

[dimefreak]

liked them better when they were a smaller operation. I see more "headscratchers" as of late. I suppose there is no real way of knowing when the stickers were applied. It might just be that there are more CAC coins available now. Grading is subjective... Not everybody is going to agree with a certain grade

 

To my knowledge, they are the same sized "operation" now as when they first started. And, since they are imperfect, it makes (pun intended) perfect sense, that the greater number of coins reviewed, the greater number of "headscratchers" there will be.

 

I apologize for assuming that CAC is receiving more coins now than when they first started. I also am not sure what the "imperfect" stands for in your sentence. Grading is subjective, therefore there is not a definite answer.

[stman]

I'm still basically neutral on CAC. A lot of folks felt I was against them when in reality I have more of a problem with what I view as elitist attitudes from some on the subject. For a long time folks felt IMO that CAC could do no wrong. Now, at least some admit they make mistakes just like the TPG's.

 

I recall at first as far as circulated bust material I seen quite a few of eye sores.

Not as much lately. I have some circulated bust material with stickers and have to admit, they aren't cleaned and re-toned, or have any hairlines from abuse.

 

I think they might be appreciating originality a bit more than they used to. I see they don't mind an old scratch if it's well toned in, or a small rim bump on bust material if it's a lower circulated coin with original surfaces. Am I supporter? L NO:).But have to concede if I spend quite a bit of hard earned cash I don't mind a sticker. I just can't ignore the current market.

[MJ]

It's an opinion on an opinion. It is what it is.

 

I will offer that the CAC opinion is based on known luminaries. NGC and PCGS opinions are based on payed professionals as well albeit undisclosed. I like the double layer.

 

I honestly believe too many people get the meaning and creation of the CAC green sticker a little skewed. It simply means a A or B coin for the grade. Nothing more. yes, mistakes happen. For goodness sakes they still get the calls wrong sometimes in football even with the instant reply. You are not ever going to take the human element out of grading. The CAC intent was to reward the solid coins for the grade and punish the "C" coins that holding prices down within the grade. I think they have achieved that albeit the spread maybe greater then one would have first suspected. Certainly there seems to be less liberties taken on the term "PQ" these days by dealers and collectors without the sticker.

 

Personally I don't think anyone posting within this tread outside of Mark could grade for a living or do what Albanese does. It's a different game under the grading tent.

 

MJ