Realistic Expectations - "Original Roll"

[mikew148]

I'm looking into purchasing a roll of Morgan Dollars. Anybody have personal experience buying original rolls? There are several sellers that claim their rolls are Gem BU. By definition these coins should be MS65 and over, right? .

 

What would your realistic expectations be if you were to purchase a roll that's being sold as Gem BU, anything in the 66 range? 65 and over (Gem)? 64 and up (Choice BU)? Should there be any 63's and lower?

 

 

Obviously, I would only buy from a seller that has sold rolls with a positive feedback rating and accepts returns, But thought I'd ask here first.

 

Thanks - Mike

 

 

[MJ]

I have no expectations on original rolls claiming to be GEM BU. MJ

[RWB]

Unlikely there is anything good in the not-quite-original-rolls. (If I open a mint-fresh bag, pick out the best and roll the rest, are not those original rolls?)

[mikew148]

Unlikely there is anything good in the not-quite-original-rolls. (If I open a mint-fresh bag, pick out the best and roll the rest, are not those original rolls?)

 

True, but the listing says Gem BU Original Roll. Does the term Gem BU not mean anything?

[cpm9ball]

Unlikely there is anything good in the not-quite-original-rolls. (If I open a mint-fresh bag, pick out the best and roll the rest, are not those original rolls?)

 

True, but the listing says Gem BU Original Roll. Does the term Gem BU not mean anything?

 

On SleazeBay? You've got to be kidding!

 

How long can you hold your breath?

 

Chris

[mikew148]

Unlikely there is anything good in the not-quite-original-rolls. (If I open a mint-fresh bag, pick out the best and roll the rest, are not those original rolls?)

 

True, but the listing says Gem BU Original Roll. Does the term Gem BU not mean anything?

 

On SleazeBay? You've got to be kidding!

 

How long can you hold your breath?

 

Chris

 

Doesn't have to be eBay. If anybody could recommend a dealer that could deliver a roll of Gems, I'd be interested.

[Raisethis2]

What happens in probably 95% of the cases is that the current owner opens the roll, searches it for the absolute best coins and pulls them out. What then remains is, well..........the leftovers. It's always possible they left something "pretty good" there just because they needed to complete the roll but more likely it's been searched.

 

There's always the odd chance that a roll purchased in the 1970's might be original but it's just unlikely. Accordingly, when you see these purchased, they are barely over melt oftentimes.

 

[mikew148]

What happens in probably 95% of the cases is that the current owner opens the roll, searches it for the absolute best coins and pulls them out. What then remains is, well..........the leftovers. It's always possible they left something "pretty good" there just because they needed to complete the roll but more likely it's been searched.

 

There's always the odd chance that a roll purchased in the 1970's might be original but it's just unlikely. Accordingly, when you see these purchased, they are barely over melt oftentimes.

 

I would understand this answer if the roll is listed as "Choice BU to Gem BU". But when the seller makes a point of saying "GEM BU" is he not making a statement regarding minimum grade to be expected?

 

[e1cnr]

when they made Morgans, they did not have rolls

 

 

 

something DOES NOT COMPUTE

[cpm9ball]

What happens in probably 95% of the cases is that the current owner opens the roll, searches it for the absolute best coins and pulls them out. What then remains is, well..........the leftovers. It's always possible they left something "pretty good" there just because they needed to complete the roll but more likely it's been searched.

 

There's always the odd chance that a roll purchased in the 1970's might be original but it's just unlikely. Accordingly, when you see these purchased, they are barely over melt oftentimes.

 

I would understand this answer if the roll is listed as "Choice BU to Gem BU". But when the seller makes a point of saying "GEM BU" is he not making a statement regarding minimum grade to be expected?

74

 

What it all boils down to is whether or not you believe the seller. If you do, then buy them because I don't mind eating a little crow and admitting I'm wrong. I just don't think I am.

 

Chris

[gmarguli]

I would understand this answer if the roll is listed as "Choice BU to Gem BU". But when the seller makes a point of saying "GEM BU" is he not making a statement regarding minimum grade to be expected?

 

Yes. However, grading is subjective and not everyone uses the same terms. Some people consider Gem to be MS65. Some people consider it to be MS67. Some other people consider it to be MS63. And of course your "gem" MS65 is my blah MS62 regardless of what term we use.

 

As for original rolls of Morgan dollars, forget about it. 99.999% chance they are not even close to being original. They are put together. I've handled Morgan rolls that are as close to what you could call original and grades typically ranged from MS62-MS65. That grade range is very close to what I found in rolls of other type coins that I am near positive were legitimately original. How could a seller get an original roll of all gems? The odds are staggering.

 

If you want a roll of gem Morgans, buy a roll already graded. They're common enough that pretty much any dealer could get you a roll in a matter of days.

[nk1nk]

I agree with most that it is very unlikley you will find an unsearched roll of morgan dollars. But I will say this, about a year ago a guy on ebay was selling some shotgun rolled morgans, they were stamped carson city bank on them. The seller wrote a very long description saying the carson city bank didn't mean they would have carson city morgans in the rolls and that he had unwrapped around five rolls and sent them in to be graded, going off memory most came back 64 and 65's with around 3 to 5 per roll being PL and even a few being DMPL and from his pictures many end coins looked PL. The rolls were wrapped VERY tight, you could see the ridges of the coins thru the thick wrapper and everything looked legit to me and I was very interested but could not get past the fact that these were the real deal and the first few rolls went for 2 to 3K and I almost bid heavy for a few but decided to wait. When the feedback started coming in I was convinced they were real, but by that time these things started going for 5 to 7K. He also had some half rolls, and also a lot of feedback from buyers claiming several CC's per roll. What am I getting at, I think its possible but very rare, If it seems legit, go for it. I wish I had. I thought I had better photos but could not find them.

 

Nick

 

[mikew148]

I agree with most that it is very unlikley you will find an unsearched roll of morgan dollars. But I will say this, about a year ago a guy on ebay was selling some shotgun rolled morgans, they were stamped carson city bank on them. The seller wrote a very long description saying the carson city bank didn't mean they would have carson city morgans in the rolls and that he had unwrapped around five rolls and sent them in to be graded, going off memory most came back 64 and 65's with around 3 to 5 per roll being PL and even a few being DMPL and from his pictures many end coins looked PL. The rolls were wrapped VERY tight, you could see the ridges of the coins thru the thick wrapper and everything looked legit to me and I was very interested but could not get past the fact that these were the real deal and the first few rolls went for 2 to 3K and I almost bid heavy for a few but decided to wait. When the feedback started coming in I was convinced they were real, but by that time these things started going for 5 to 7K. He also had some half rolls, and also a lot of feedback from buyers claiming several CC's per roll. What am I getting at, I think its possible but very rare, If it seems legit, go for it. I wish I had. I thought I had better photos but could not find them.

 

Nick

 

 

Very nice, I'd love to get a couple of those!

[RockMyAmadeus]

I agree with most that it is very unlikley you will find an unsearched roll of morgan dollars. But I will say this, about a year ago a guy on ebay was selling some shotgun rolled morgans, they were stamped carson city bank on them. The seller wrote a very long description saying the carson city bank didn't mean they would have carson city morgans in the rolls and that he had unwrapped around five rolls and sent them in to be graded, going off memory most came back 64 and 65's with around 3 to 5 per roll being PL and even a few being DMPL and from his pictures many end coins looked PL. The rolls were wrapped VERY tight, you could see the ridges of the coins thru the thick wrapper and everything looked legit to me and I was very interested but could not get past the fact that these were the real deal and the first few rolls went for 2 to 3K and I almost bid heavy for a few but decided to wait. When the feedback started coming in I was convinced they were real, but by that time these things started going for 5 to 7K. He also had some half rolls, and also a lot of feedback from buyers claiming several CC's per roll. What am I getting at, I think its possible but very rare, If it seems legit, go for it. I wish I had. I thought I had better photos but could not find them.

 

Nick

 

 

 

My memory is super fuzzy on this, but this story is familiar, and not in a good way...

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm looking into purchasing a roll of Morgan Dollars. Anybody have personal experience buying original rolls? There are several sellers that claim their rolls are Gem BU. By definition these coins should be MS65 and over, right? .

I do not think that is right, personally. "Gem roll" is different than "a roll of Gems". That being said, I agree with others that the terms "gem" shouldn't be used at all, nor should "choice", since these are terms used to grade individual coins, not groups.

 

In our auction catalogs, starting with the last auction, I began to and will continue to use a purely subjective and somewhat arbitrary classification of letter grades indicating the quality of the rolls being sold in comparison to what I typically encounter. A "C" roll is average, typically comprised of MS-61/2 coins, "B" rolls should average out to MS-63, a "A" rolls should average out to MS-64. I would classify as "A+" a roll that seems to contain only MS-65 coins or better.

 

That's just my strategy and I would never expect nor necessarily encourage anyone else to follow these guidelines.

[cpm9ball]

I would classify as "A+" a roll that seems to contain only MS-65 coins or better.

 

The next time you get a "made-up" roll of A+ Morgans at Scotsman, would you please let me know. I would love to follow the lot in the auction.

 

Chris

[rmpsrpms]

I've been buying paper-wrapped BU rolls for about 25 years now and have seen what I think is the full gamut of the roll business. I've accessed a wide range of sources and situations, some with known history, most without. What I can say is that every roll purchase I've made is unique situation and it is always a complete mystery as to what I will find inside. Terms like "GemBU", "OBW", "original", "bank" or "bank-wrapped", are all pretty meaningless since there are many ways a paper roll could have been created.

 

For a long time I watched eBay listings and simply did a quick search on Google of the history of the bank whose "original" roll was being offered. With a little digging, most bank histories can be traced. Most of the banks represented on paper rolls are no longer in existence, having merged or been absorbed by another bank after their failure. They will often show up in a historical timeline of another bank. Note that if you do a search, don't accept a small change in the wording of the bank name. Bank names are PRECISE and if the wording on a roll is off by any amount, it is not the same bank.

 

Another factor is that the machines to wrap rolls were invented in the early years of the 20th century. The first roll-wrapping patents came out in 1906, but none of those machines were put into major use. It wasn't until Batdorf patented his machine in 1915 that machine-wrapped rolls started to be used heavily in commerce. If you have a machine-wrapped roll of let's say 1909VDB Cents, it is not original since there were no machines to wrap them. In fact almost all coins until the late teens were supplied in various-sized bags.

 

Now let's analyze the Dollar roll shown in this thread. First of all, Morgan Dollars, except for 1921's, were not supplied to the banks in rolls, only bags. Second, I will bet an end-view of the roll shows a crimped wrapping, which is a dead giveaway that it was wrapped after 1915. Third, without even looking up the bank, it's easy to see that the wrapper is a contemporary counterfeit. Note the font of the word "Nevada" is different from the bank name. It is a modern font invented mid-century. So this roll tube was likely printed in the 60's or 70's or even much later.

 

I think these rolls have had a lot of discussion on various forums since the seller started to make $$ off them. A Google search of the bank name mostly brings up discussions about them! What it does not bring up is a valid reference of a bank called "Carson City State Trust Bank Nevada" or even without the word Nevada.

 

 

[leeg]

Great info rmpsrpms!

 

(thumbs u

[cpm9ball]

Great info rmpsrpms!

 

(thumbs u

 

Yes, that was interesting!

 

 

I apologize for digressing a bit, but I learned something I did not know about the Royal Mint (UK) from an acquaintance on another forum. She works as a ticket seller for the mass transit system in England. Apparently, the Royal Mint does not sell rolls or bags of coins to the general public. Bags of coins are only sold to the banks at face value, and rolls are nonexistent. So, any collector who wishes to purchase a bag of same date/denomination coins need only go to their local bank. Unlike the US Mint, there is no premium paid for them.

 

Chris

[johnny9434]

i myself find it hard to believe that its original. if it were i would be keeping that for myself. jmo and its just me

[Kurtdog]

What happens in probably 95% of the cases is that the current owner opens the roll, searches it for the absolute best coins and pulls them out. What then remains is, well..........the leftovers. It's always possible they left something "pretty good" there just because they needed to complete the roll but more likely it's been searched.

 

There's always the odd chance that a roll purchased in the 1970's might be original but it's just unlikely. Accordingly, when you see these purchased, they are barely over melt oftentimes.

I would understand this answer if the roll is listed as "Choice BU to Gem BU". But when the seller makes a point of saying "GEM BU" is he not making a statement regarding minimum grade to be expected?

GEM BU to whom? There are a lot of grading companies out there, aren't there?

[World Colonial]

Given how common practically every Morgan dollar is, the only motive I can see for someone to buy a roll in this manner is to try to make a profit or a windfall off of it. Otherwise as Greg already said, just go buy the coins you want in the grade and holder you want.

 

No one is going to find a 1893-S or any other mint state "key" date in such a roll and I do not think they are going to find any coins worth a lot more than they are paying either because the seller would be crazy not to "cherry pick" it first before it is sold. I would expect that almost all the time, these transactions are a better deal for the seller than the buyer. If something sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is not.

[mikew148]

What happens in probably 95% of the cases is that the current owner opens the roll, searches it for the absolute best coins and pulls them out. What then remains is, well..........the leftovers. It's always possible they left something "pretty good" there just because they needed to complete the roll but more likely it's been searched.

 

There's always the odd chance that a roll purchased in the 1970's might be original but it's just unlikely. Accordingly, when you see these purchased, they are barely over melt oftentimes.

I would understand this answer if the roll is listed as "Choice BU to Gem BU". But when the seller makes a point of saying "GEM BU" is he not making a statement regarding minimum grade to be expected?

GEM BU to whom? There are a lot of grading companies out there, aren't there?

 

Yes, there are a lot of grading companies that are not up to the task of grading coins. However, I was thinking a coin "dealer", that has been successful for many years, would use this definition for a Gem. ( from Numismedia's web site)

 

"MS 65 - This is the gem category. Coin should be fully struck with eye appeal. Either brilliant or toned but there should not be any unsightly marks or color that negates eye appeal. Any marks should be very minor in appearance. Prices spread out even further."

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveG]

There are certainly tons of uncirculated Morgans around and there are dealers who are as good at grading as the current employees of the grading services (some of them are ex-graders, of course).

 

Much depends on what you think you're buying.

 

If you really want a roll of MS-65 Morgans, your best bet is to go to a dealer who has a large inventory of slabbed Morgans and pick out 20 coins that are already in MS-65 PCGS or NGC slabs.

 

Your next bet would be to go to a dealer that has a large inventory of raw Morgans, pick out a bunch and commit to buy 20 coins that will then be submitted to one of the services and come back in MS-65 slabs. You would arrange this in writing and in advance.

 

Your next bet would be to go to the dealer with the large inventory of raw Morgans and pick out 20 coins that he thinks will slab at MS-65. (However, the coins will not be guaranteed to slab at MS-65.)

 

Your least desirable choice is to buy a roll of coins sight-unseen, relying only on a vague description of "Gem BU". Such a roll might be MS-63 coins, or they might be AU-58s - you have no way of knowing in advance.

[grip]

What happens in probably 95% of the cases is that the current owner opens the roll, searches it for the absolute best coins and pulls them out. What then remains is, well..........the leftovers. It's always possible they left something "pretty good" there just because they needed to complete the roll but more likely it's been searched.

 

There's always the odd chance that a roll purchased in the 1970's might be original but it's just unlikely. Accordingly, when you see these purchased, they are barely over melt oftentimes.

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

Yes, this is likely the case. The problem is when the owner then re-packages the coins, carefully crimping the ends to look original, and then sells the roll as "OBW" or "original" or "Bank Roll" or some other such deceptive term in order to inflate the value of the roll. A 5-letter word starting with F comes to mind...

 

I occasionally run across groups of rolls of the same date and MM, either truly unsearched OBW or high-end unsearched tubed rolls from the 60's. I am a variety searcher and have a very specific searching and sorting method when I get these groups of rolls:

 

1) Open and dump each roll out onto a sorting tray

2) Orient the coins all heads-up in small piles

3) Use stereo microscope to search obverses of each coin for varieties

4) Flip the piles over and search reverses

5) Sort remaining coins by condition and grade

6) Repeat for each roll

7) Pull all coins of similar condition and grade together into tubes

8) Spend the culls (fingerprints, big spots, big gouges, etc)

9) Put the selected Gems into the safe for later

10) Sell the Average and Choice rolls on eBay or BST

 

For all the rolls sold on eBay, I describe them as "selected Average", "selected Choice", etc and I sell them in tubes.