Here we go again. A cleaned Unc coin advertised as Proof

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

 

They are your opinions. I don't disagree or agree with them. However, I do get lost sometimes in your novella-like responses written in lawyer's English.

 

For this I apologize.

 

You did read it though.......

 

I detect a slight unhappiness with my Posts.

 

I suggest not reading anything I post, and this will assist you in not having to respond.

 

Maybe you missed my wink?? ;) ;)

 

I have no problem with your posts. Though, I'm not sure why you made reference to your Posts as a proper noun?

 

I caught the wink.

It is just that you find fault with my omnipotence, and darn it, I don't like it.

Wear suspenders, do ya??

 

Go P on yourself.....

[brg5658]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

 

They are your opinions. I don't disagree or agree with them. However, I do get lost sometimes in your novella-like responses written in lawyer's English.

 

For this I apologize.

 

You did read it though.......

 

I detect a slight unhappiness with my Posts.

 

I suggest not reading anything I post, and this will assist you in not having to respond.

 

Maybe you missed my wink?? ;) ;)

 

I have no problem with your posts. Though, I'm not sure why you made reference to your Posts as a proper noun?

 

I caught the wink.

It is just that you find fault with my omnipotence, and darn it, I don't like it.

Wear suspenders, do ya??

 

Go P on yourself.....

 

I'm not getting the "suspenders" reference I guess....are you asking how old I am? I fathom a great deal younger than you!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

 

They are your opinions. I don't disagree or agree with them. However, I do get lost sometimes in your novella-like responses written in lawyer's English.

 

For this I apologize.

 

You did read it though.......

 

I detect a slight unhappiness with my Posts.

 

I suggest not reading anything I post, and this will assist you in not having to respond.

 

Maybe you missed my wink?? ;) ;)

 

I have no problem with your posts. Though, I'm not sure why you made reference to your Posts as a proper noun?

 

I caught the wink.

It is just that you find fault with my omnipotence, and darn it, I don't like it.

Wear suspenders, do ya??

 

Go P on yourself.....

 

I'm not getting the "suspenders" reference I guess....are you asking how old I am? I fathom a great deal younger than you!

 

I apologize again.

I thought you had read my PPPPPost.

Please pay particular attention to my commentary on the fashion presentation of Mr. Julian. There, I assure you, is the next GQ cover.

[Hard Times]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

 

Professional graders, with no stake in the coin, at PCGS, and NGC, disagree with it being proof. I think I will side with the professional graders here. This is a classic example of why numismatists should thank heavens for TPG grading and slabs and why the past days of raw only coins, where the dealers opinion on the coin they are selling may be overvaluing the coin, is in the past. Someone could have bought this based on Julian's opinion in the past before TPG and taken a serious hit......

 

Best, HT

 

I was going to keep my big mouth shut, but (blah,blah), I have a problem with the logic of this opinion.

 

I am not for or against Mr. Julian. I do not know Julian, Julian is no friend of mine, and I am certain you are no Julian.

 

The thrust of your posit is that since 2 TPGs, via their paid Graders that do not have a vested monetary interest in the coin, have declared the coin is of a type certain, then these Graders are not capable of being wrong.

 

Now, I hate people who wear Suspenders with wrinkled old whiteish/grey shirts and roll around on a rickety old chair at coin shows as much as the next guy, (even though it is a good gimmick) however, I would suspect that the opinion of Mr. Julian is just as valid as any other "expert".

 

The "...classic example..." declaration may not be valid.

 

We have all experienced the TPG "oops" coins. The overvaluing days are not over and have not disappeared. What has changed is the personal knowledge and self-responsibility of the dedicated collector/purchaser, and, yes, the coin dealer.

 

I will thank Heaven that there have been one heck of a lot of books mass published and readily and cheaply available for the collector than ever before to educate us, and I will thank Heaven for the internet (and maybe even throw a little angel dust on Heritage for their excellent website), and I will thank Heaven for the authors like RWB that give their all to the hobby, and out of love for numismatics.

 

I don't think the TPGs should be praised to the highest for a marketing program that delivers something to customers that is still an opinion, and nothing more.

 

Opinions wrapped in pretty packaging are still opinions. The TPGs will sell all you desire. I can appreciate why you are a member of their Church, and do not find any fault with you being a member, nor do I find fault with the TPGs or their marketing model.

 

But (blah,blah) when we condemn the opinion church of another, and declare it blasphemy, we risk our own right to opinion.

 

Now, wearing the suspenders, especially when unshaved, is a different story... go get him!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Actually John, you have concluded things about my post that are untrue. What I mean is that I trust TPG graders in this more than I do the dealer in this case. Are they wrong? Possibly, but again, as a buyer, I would trust them more than the dealer.

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

Actually, professional graders do have a stake in the coin. At least their employer does.

Lance.

 

Actually, good point, which is why they err on the side of caution. So for them to certify this one as proof, there can be no doubt as they don't want to pay for it later on if it is proven to be MS. Hence, they both chose to not give it proof status because there must be some doubt at some level.

 

Having said that, as a buyer, if the TPG's are erring on the side of caution, then I will also and go with their opinion.

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

Here is a question for y'all to ponder: What if Julian actually sells this to someone lacking grading ability to make a proper evaluation of the coin and trusts Julian's assessment of it being proof. Is this an ethical sale at $19.5K?

 

Best, HT

[comicdonna]

Here is a question for y'all to ponder: What if Julian actually sells this to someone lacking grading ability to make a proper evaluation of the coin and trusts Julian's assessment of it being proof. Is this an ethical sale at $19.5K?

 

Best, HT

Would it be if it was a proof?

[Hard Times]

good second question. Anyone?

[mkman123]

I wonder what Mark Feld thinks about this coin.......does he think its a proof or ?

[MarkFeld]

Here is a question for y'all to ponder: What if Julian actually sells this to someone lacking grading ability to make a proper evaluation of the coin and trusts Julian's assessment of it being proof. Is this an ethical sale at $19.5K?

 

Best, HT

 

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Here is a question for y'all to ponder: What if Julian actually sells this to someone lacking grading ability to make a proper evaluation of the coin and trusts Julian's assessment of it being proof. Is this an ethical sale at $19.5K?

 

Best, HT

 

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

Yeah, but what about the suspenders, and the shirt, and the chair, and.....

[coinman_23885]

Here is a question for y'all to ponder: What if Julian actually sells this to someone lacking grading ability to make a proper evaluation of the coin and trusts Julian's assessment of it being proof. Is this an ethical sale at $19.5K?

 

Best, HT

 

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

+1

[MJ]

It almost seem that Julian's numismatic coins are part of his personal collection and not his inventory. Some of his prices elect the cost to pry it out of his collection. It almost seems like this is a hobby for him.

 

MJ

[copper toning]

It almost seems that Julian's numismatic coins are part of his personal collection and not his inventory. Some of his prices elect the cost to pry it out of his collection. It almost seems like this is a hobby for him.

 

MJ

 

If that is the case it would be interesting to know if he paid proof money for the coin. I am sure we may never know but it is an interesting thought.

[jom]

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

I agree with this. JL has the right to sell his coin (or even if it's consigned) at whatever price he wishes. I would also hope anyone who spends $20K on a coin better know what the hell they are doing. So that, basically, a sale of that magnitude is between a KNOWLEDGEABLE seller and KNOWLEDGEABLE buyer. Who are WE to say otherwise?

 

Given that...I don't for one minute believe Julian will ever sell that coin at that level....

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

I agree with this. JL has the right to sell his coin (or even if it's consigned) at whatever price he wishes. I would also hope anyone who spends $20K on a coin better know what the hell they are doing. So that, basically, a sale of that magnitude is between a KNOWLEDGEABLE seller and KNOWLEDGEABLE buyer. Who are WE to say otherwise?

 

Given that...I don't for one minute believe Julian will ever sell that coin at that level....

 

jom

 

I agree; the coin will never sell. The only thing that is potentially in danger here is Julian's reputation. If he wants to risk it on a few coins, let him go for it. He reminds me of Walter Breen.

 

Edited to add: Because at least one poster who I respect very much has indicated that this post could have been misconstrued, I am adding this note to explain the last sentence. I am comparing him to Walter Breen the numismatist, and not Walter Breen's non-numismatic issues. Breen was a distinguished numismatist who also was notorious for identifying specimen and proof strikes, which were rejected by the larger numismatic community (and evidence suggests that these are normal business strike pieces). It was a comparison to Breen's specimen strikes that I was alluding to, and nothing nefarious was implied.

[MJ]

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

I agree with this. JL has the right to sell his coin (or even if it's consigned) at whatever price he wishes. I would also hope anyone who spends $20K on a coin better know what the hell they are doing. So that, basically, a sale of that magnitude is between a KNOWLEDGEABLE seller and KNOWLEDGEABLE buyer. Who are WE to say otherwise?

 

Given that...I don't for one minute believe Julian will ever sell that coin at that level....

 

jom

 

I agree. The only thing that is potentially in danger here is Julian's reputation. If he wants to risk it on a few coins, let him go for it.

 

Julian has always tried to sell his coins for what HE thinks they are worth and no one else TPG's and price guides included. This is his reputation.

 

MJ

[coinman_23885]

I agree. The only thing that is potentially in danger here is Julian's reputation. If he wants to risk it on a few coins, let him go for it.

 

Julian has always tried to sell his coins for what HE thinks they are worth and no one else TPG's and price guides included. This is his reputation.

 

MJ

 

I didn't quite mean that in the sarcastic way it came out. What I am saying to the OP is that there is little point in sounding the alarm so to speak. I don't think anyone is in real danger of buying it as a proof. The only one likely to be hurt (if anyone) would be the seller, so I wouldn't beat the dead horse so to speak.

[MJ]

I agree. The only thing that is potentially in danger here is Julian's reputation. If he wants to risk it on a few coins, let him go for it.

 

Julian has always tried to sell his coins for what HE thinks they are worth and no one else TPG's and price guides included. This is his reputation.

 

MJ

 

I didn't quite mean that in the sarcastic way it came out. What I am saying to the OP is that there is little point in sounding the alarm so to speak. I don't think anyone is in real danger of buying it as a proof. The only one likely to be hurt (if anyone) would be the seller, so I wouldn't beat the dead horse so to speak.

 

I know. MJ

[crypto79-migration]

It almost seem that Julian's numismatic coins are part of his personal collection and not his inventory. Some of his prices elect the cost to pry it out of his collection. It almost seems like this is a hobby for him.

 

MJ

 

Julian makes it a point not to actively take part in the hobby as he believes this would pose a potential conflict of intrest with his clients as he would by default be competing with them for the choicest coins. This is just one of countless examples of Julian unimpeachable integrity.

 

I think it is amateurish of those who consider them selves eBay rangers and think that it represents the absolute pinnacle of the market. The OP knows nothing personal/first hand about the coin, history, seller, or even proof dieonogstics for the issue I bet. That sure doesn't stop him from having opinions and pretending that he has facts based of extrapolating opinions form other people he has never met at the TPGs. Why this board entertains him speaks poorly of the group. IMO

[coinman_23885]

Why this board entertains him speaks poorly of the group. IMO

 

By posting to this thread, are you not entertaining him and thus becoming part of the "group" yourself?

 

P.S. Many of the posters here would have agreed with your other points.

[newprepper]

It seems to me that the man has some serious credentials. If that is the case, he knows people, so why doesn't he speak to the bosses, CAC included and come to an understanding once and for all about the pedigree of this coin? Seems like he could go above the graders heads in this case. Or maybe I just don't know WTF I'm talking about, which is probably the case.

[MJ]

It almost seems that Julian's numismatic coins are part of his personal collection and not his inventory. Some of his prices elect the cost to pry it out of his collection. It almost seems like this is a hobby for him.

 

MJ

 

Julian makes it a point not to actively take part in the hobby as he believes this would pose a potential conflict of intrest with his clients as he would by default be competing with them for the choicest coins. This is just one of countless examples of Julian unimpeachable integrity.

 

I think it is amateurish of those who consider them selves eBay rangers and think that it represents the absolute pinnacle of the market. The OP knows nothing personal/first hand about the coin, history, seller, or even proof dieonogstics for the issue I bet. That sure doesn't stop him from having opinions and pretending that he has facts based of extrapolating opinions form other people he has never met at the TPGs. Why this board entertains him speaks poorly of the group. IMO

 

I can live with this. MJ

[MarkFeld]

It seems to me that the man has some serious credentials. If that is the case, he knows people, so why doesn't he speak to the bosses, CAC included and come to an understanding once and for all about the pedigree of this coin? Seems like he could go above the graders heads in this case. Or maybe I just don't know WTF I'm talking about, which is probably the case.

 

Sorry, but the above post sounds as if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

CAC has nothing to do with a PCGS or NGC coin which has received a no-grade.

 

And the pedigree of the coin is largely irrelevant - perhaps you meant method of manufacture?

 

Finally, who at a grading company should render a grading opinion, if not the graders?

[James_OldeTowne]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

Professional graders, with no stake in the coin, at PCGS, and NGC, disagree with it being proof. I think I will side with the professional graders here. This is a classic example of why numismatists should thank heavens for TPG grading and slabs and why the past days of raw only coins, where the dealers opinion on the coin they are selling may be overvaluing the coin, is in the past. Someone could have bought this based on Julian's opinion in the past before TPG and taken a serious hit......

Your post is so basically erroneous that I almost wonder whether you are joking.

 

The eBay item in question represents an issue of ATTRIBUTION, NOT "GRADING". The TPGs, both NGC and PCGS, make errors in judgement with regard to proof vs. circulation strike and will usually correct these errors when proven.

 

"Proof" has NOTHING to do with "grade" -- it is an indication of manufacturing process of the coin.

 

Most anyone who collects three-cent nickels and shield nickels is already well aware of the many errors made by the TPGs with regard to certain dates for which it is difficult to attribute a proof versus a circulation strike.

 

The problem, as I indicated in my first post, is NOT with "professional graders", but rather with "professional attributors", and PCGS at one time was notorious for not having any (they have augmented their professional staff in that regard over the last few years). NGC has always been a bit ahead of the competition in this regard.

 

Edited to add:

Here is a question for y'all to ponder: What if Julian actually sells this to someone lacking grading ability to make a proper evaluation of the coin and trusts Julian's assessment of it being proof. Is this an ethical sale at $19.5K?

 

Best, HT

Of course it would be, provided the buyer is not being coerced in an unfair manner. He would see the TPG opinion of "circulation strike", weigh that against an expert opinion of "proof", then decide to purchase the coin at $19,000. "Ethics" has not in any remote way been violated under that scenario. It is indeed a very common situation in the everyday business of dealing with any collectible.

[James_OldeTowne]

And the pedigree of the coin is largely irrelevant - perhaps you meant method of manufacture?

Mark, I don't know whether the previous poster meant this, but "pedigree" could be very valuable in a case like this. If a sequence of ownership could be established for the coin and ended up showing that the initial purchase from "the mint" was as a proof, that would demonstrate the proper attribution once and for all.

[MarkFeld]

And the pedigree of the coin is largely irrelevant - perhaps you meant method of manufacture?

Mark, I don't know whether the previous poster meant this, but "pedigree" could be very valuable in a case like this. If a sequence of ownership could be established for the coin and ended up showing that the initial purchase from "the mint" was as a proof, that would demonstrate the proper attribution once and for all.

 

James, in the context it ("pedigree") was used, the poster seemed to be speaking of the coin's attribution as a Proof or business strike. But even in the case of "pedigree" as you (correctly) used it, I don't think that a coin's sequence of ownership should be used to attribute a coin. But rather, the coin should be judged on its own merits.

 

For example, decades ago, many PL coins were routinely described in auctions as "Proof".

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

I agree with this. JL has the right to sell his coin (or even if it's consigned) at whatever price he wishes. I would also hope anyone who spends $20K on a coin better know what the hell they are doing. So that, basically, a sale of that magnitude is between a KNOWLEDGEABLE seller and KNOWLEDGEABLE buyer. Who are WE to say otherwise?

 

Given that...I don't for one minute believe Julian will ever sell that coin at that level....

 

jom

 

I agree; the coin will never sell. The only thing that is potentially in danger here is Julian's reputation. If he wants to risk it on a few coins, let him go for it. He reminds me of Walter Breen.

 

I recall I have seen pictures of Mr. Breen unshaven, wearing a whiteish/grey dingy unironed shirt, and suspenders. I don't know if Mr. Breen had a chair on rollers, however, you may be on to something, via a comparison.....

[MarkFeld]

I believe it would be an ethical sale, as long as Julian provided full, honest disclosure. And I believe that he would.

 

But please don't take my comment to mean I would feel good about such a transaction. I also believe that the buyer would be buried in the coin.

 

I agree with this. JL has the right to sell his coin (or even if it's consigned) at whatever price he wishes. I would also hope anyone who spends $20K on a coin better know what the hell they are doing. So that, basically, a sale of that magnitude is between a KNOWLEDGEABLE seller and KNOWLEDGEABLE buyer. Who are WE to say otherwise?

 

Given that...I don't for one minute believe Julian will ever sell that coin at that level....

 

jom

 

I agree; the coin will never sell. The only thing that is potentially in danger here is Julian's reputation. If he wants to risk it on a few coins, let him go for it. He reminds me of Walter Breen.

 

I recall I have seen pictures of Mr. Breen unshaven, wearing a whiteish/grey dingy unironed shirt, and suspenders. I don't know if Mr. Breen had a chair on rollers, however, you may be on to something, via a comparison.....

 

In my opinion, any references/comparisons to Walter Breen and his reputation seem off base and out of line.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It almost seem that Julian's numismatic coins are part of his personal collection and not his inventory. Some of his prices elect the cost to pry it out of his collection. It almost seems like this is a hobby for him.

 

MJ

 

Julian makes it a point not to actively take part in the hobby as he believes this would pose a potential conflict of intrest with his clients as he would by default be competing with them for the choicest coins. This is just one of countless examples of Julian unimpeachable integrity.

 

I think it is amateurish of those who consider them selves eBay rangers and think that it represents the absolute pinnacle of the market. The OP knows nothing personal/first hand about the coin, history, seller, or even proof dieonogstics for the issue I bet. That sure doesn't stop him from having opinions and pretending that he has facts based of extrapolating opinions form other people he has never met at the TPGs. Why this board entertains him speaks poorly of the group. IMO

 

I don't find fault with you having the Right of opinion.

 

I do find fault with any suggestion that limits the Right of another to have an opinion.

 

I don't participate in ebay.

 

I have opinions.

 

I extrapolate all the time, as you have done in your opinion.

 

I attempt to entertain, and am entertained by other opinions all the time.

 

I agree that maybe my wife finds me amateurish, and maybe even "immatureish" (made that up).

 

That does not give you the Right to suggest condemning me or anyone else from the Group.

 

It is not hard to be polite. It is much hader to be discourteous.

 

Do you wear suspenders and dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts, by the way? Just curious.