Here we go again. A cleaned Unc coin advertised as Proof

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

That was a fair and logical Post, until the last sentence.

When we state we have nothing nice to say about someone, we are not refraining.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

In my opinion, any references/comparisons to Walter Breen and his reputation seem off base and out of line.

 

How so? Walter Breen enjoyed a reputation as a distinguished numismatist, but at the same time, he also attributed several specimen strikes that have been rejected by the numismatic community and that there exists evidence that are nothing more than normal business strikes. How in the world is that out of line? Are you reading something else into the comment?

 

Because of Walter Breen is associated with (outside the realm of numismatics).

 

Mr. Mark, I admit that one surprised me.

 

This view never entered my mind, and I do not think anyone else posting here interpreted any comments by anybody in that vein. I fervently pray that nobody did.

 

I am confident you are cognizant about the intent of my Post; however, if my choice of words caused you to suspect I was posting a hidden nuance, mea culpa.

 

That would be an act of evil intent, and is not acceptable under any circumstance.

 

I am glad though, that you are not unhappy due to greyish/whiteish unironed shirts and suspenders and rolling chairs.

 

That would break my heart.

[newprepper]

My understanding of the matter of superbly well manufactured coins whose precise method is not well-documented is that the TPG's will err on the side of caution. This, however, is a current day development. Especially where records don't really exist.

 

It used to be accepted that proofs exist of BM Morgan's, Isabella's and 20c pieces (among others). Steve Contursi wanted his 1794 dollar to be classified as proof. Now we have the term "specimen". It's a compromise. Is it the right compromise? Who knows...

 

On the matter of whose opinion is better (Julian's or the TPG's), I say it is a toss up. On some, I'd trust Julian's opinion over the TPG's. On others, perhaps not. I'd trust the TPG on numerical assessment, but necessarily a nuanced matter as method of manufacture.

 

The assessment of the TPG's is a reflection of how much warranty they wish to provide this coin and is not intended to be an absolute judgement of the method of manufacture.

 

As for the OP, since I've nothing nice to say about him, I will simply refrain.

 

EVP

 

Kind of what I was saying with more knowledge and clarity

[MarkFeld]

In my opinion, any references/comparisons to Walter Breen and his reputation seem off base and out of line.

 

How so? Walter Breen enjoyed a reputation as a distinguished numismatist, but at the same time, he also attributed several specimen strikes that have been rejected by the numismatic community and that there exists evidence that are nothing more than normal business strikes. How in the world is that out of line? Are you reading something else into the comment?

 

Because of Walter Breen is associated with (outside the realm of numismatics).

 

Mr. Mark, I admit that one surprised me.

 

This view never entered my mind, and I do not think anyone else posting here interpreted any comments by anybody in that vein. I fervently pray that nobody did.

 

I am confident you are cognizant about the intent of my Post; however, if my choice of words caused you to suspect I was posting a hidden nuance, mea culpa.

 

That would be an act of evil intent, and is not acceptable under any circumstance.

 

I am glad though, that you are not unhappy due to greyish/whiteish unironed shirts and suspenders and rolling chairs.

 

That would break my heart.

 

John, during the past several years, most of what I have seen written about Walter Breen did not pertain to his knowledge about coins. So, after I saw two posts about him, my thoughts went on autopilot in the wrong direction. The fault was mine.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

In my opinion, any references/comparisons to Walter Breen and his reputation seem off base and out of line.

 

How so? Walter Breen enjoyed a reputation as a distinguished numismatist, but at the same time, he also attributed several specimen strikes that have been rejected by the numismatic community and that there exists evidence that are nothing more than normal business strikes. How in the world is that out of line? Are you reading something else into the comment?

 

Because of Walter Breen is associated with (outside the realm of numismatics).

 

Mr. Mark, I admit that one surprised me.

 

This view never entered my mind, and I do not think anyone else posting here interpreted any comments by anybody in that vein. I fervently pray that nobody did.

 

I am confident you are cognizant about the intent of my Post; however, if my choice of words caused you to suspect I was posting a hidden nuance, mea culpa.

 

That would be an act of evil intent, and is not acceptable under any circumstance.

 

I am glad though, that you are not unhappy due to greyish/whiteish unironed shirts and suspenders and rolling chairs.

 

That would break my heart.

 

John, during the past several years, most of what I have seen written about Walter Breen did not pertain to his knowledge about coins. So, after I saw two posts about him, my thoughts went on autopilot in the wrong direction. The fault was mine.

 

I do not find fault with your thought.

 

It is obviously borne of previous experience from other Posts.

 

The fault is mine for triggering the autopilot. I should have made the connection.

 

However, you have to admit, even as tolerant and mannerly as you are, that Mr. Julian is not going to be on the GQ Fashion Cover in the coming months.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Do you wear suspenders and dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts, by the way? Just curious.

 

Your anti-dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts agenda has not gone unnoticed.

 

 

The conformity police will be along shortly to deal with you.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

I will give you that one...you WC Escapee...Get you gone!!!

 

The Water Closet is the place where sanity goes to die on this board.

[RockMyAmadeus]

In my opinion, any references/comparisons to Walter Breen and his reputation seem off base and out of line.

 

How so? Walter Breen enjoyed a reputation as a distinguished numismatist, but at the same time, he also attributed several specimen strikes that have been rejected by the numismatic community and that there exists evidence that are nothing more than normal business strikes. How in the world is that out of line? Are you reading something else into the comment?

 

Because of Walter Breen is associated with (outside the realm of numismatics).

 

That was never my intention, and I thought it was clear that he was being compared to Walter Breen the numismatist, not Walter Breen's non-numismatic issues. The context was in reference to a erroneous claim of a proof or specimen strike, something Breen was regularly associated with.

 

Glad to hear it and I apologize for misunderstanding.

 

This exchange is amazing, a perfect contrast to another discussion going on on these boards, and involving the same person (Walter Breen.)

 

It illustrates the point I was making superbly.

[jom]

I see that you are indeed aware of how I am about extremes.

 

Why...that's the craziest thing I've ever heard!!

 

jom

[19Lyds]

The assessment of the TPG's is a reflection of how much warranty they wish to provide this coin and is not intended to be an absolute judgement of the method of manufacture..

 

EVP

Thank You EVP!

[coinman_23885]

This exhcange is amazing, a perfect contrast to another discussion going on on these boards, and involving the same person (Walter Breen.)

 

 

There is another discussion on these boards involving the same person?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Do you wear suspenders and dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts, by the way? Just curious.

 

Your anti-dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts agenda has not gone unnoticed.

 

 

The conformity police will be along shortly to deal with you.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

I will give you that one...you WC Escapee...Get you gone!!!

 

The Water Closet is the place where sanity goes to die on this board.

 

From personal experience, this is very true.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

This exhcange is amazing, a perfect contrast to another discussion going on on these boards, and involving the same person (Walter Breen.)

 

 

There is another discussion on these boards involving the same person?

 

I would like to declare now that I am innocent!!!!!!

[RockMyAmadeus]

This exhcange is amazing, a perfect contrast to another discussion going on on these boards, and involving the same person (Walter Breen.)

 

 

There is another discussion on these boards involving the same person?

 

Yes. I used Walter Breen and his extra-numismatic activities as an example that those activities don't necessarily disqualify someone's research in a particular field.

[brg5658]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

[newprepper]

Do you wear suspenders and dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts, by the way? Just curious.

 

Your anti-dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts agenda has not gone unnoticed.

 

 

The conformity police will be along shortly to deal with you.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

I will give you that one...you WC Escapee...Get you gone!!!

 

The Water Closet is the place where sanity goes to die on this board.

 

From personal experience, this is very true.

 

I was going to comment on the previous comment, not yours, but I refuse to follow you up

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Do you wear suspenders and dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts, by the way? Just curious.

 

Your anti-dingy whiteish/grey unironed shirts agenda has not gone unnoticed.

 

 

The conformity police will be along shortly to deal with you.

 

As for the rest of your post...

 

I will give you that one...you WC Escapee...Get you gone!!!

 

The Water Closet is the place where sanity goes to die on this board.

 

From personal experience, this is very true.

 

I was going to comment on the previous comment, not yours, but I refuse to follow you up

 

Please contact Blive.

[coinman_23885]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

I wonder if this was coincidental or whether they saw this post and cared to put the information out there.

[newprepper]

there is that NOISE again, blah blah blah

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

I wonder if this was coincidental or whether they saw this post and cared to put the information out there.

 

I am not much on coincidences, unless verified by my wife.

I swear, that woman scares me.

She could make a Million if she would just listen to me and walk around with a Middle Ages type shawl and crystal ball.

[physics-fan3.14]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

This seems like pretty incontrovertible evidence, and definitive confirmation that Julian's coin is not and cannot be a proof. I haven't examined his coin in hand, but I'll trust that at least 6 graders between NGC and PCGS have. If it doesn't display the diagnostics, no amount of arguing to the contrary will make it so.

 

Faced with this evidence, how does your opinion of the situation change?

[Nutmeg Coin]

"NGC is not aware of any previously published references to this die pair being used to strike non-proof coins. Likely, it is not a rare trait. Since this is not a popularly-collected variety, no rarity or survival estimates are known. This situation, however, is by no means unusual. At the US Mint, after dies completed their service in the coinage of proofs, they frequently continued to be used to make business strike coins.

 

 

"The obverse die diagnostic seen on a proof coin, at left, and a business strike coin, at right".

 

 

 

 

"The reverse die diagnostic seen on a proof coin, at left,

and a business strike coin, at right".

 

 

[EVillageProwler]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

This seems like pretty incontrovertible evidence, and definitive confirmation that Julian's coin is not and cannot be a proof. I haven't examined his coin in hand, but I'll trust that at least 6 graders between NGC and PCGS have. If it doesn't display the diagnostics, no amount of arguing to the contrary will make it so.

 

Faced with this evidence, how does your opinion of the situation change?

 

Assuming it's the same coin, then it would be nice if Julian were to provide similar research material to support his assertion.

 

However, while I admit that NGC's presentation on the matter is excellent, it is by no means conclusive because they're using a justification by a preponderance of evidence that is by no means scientifically conclusive.

 

EVP

[coinman_23885]

Assuming it's the same coin, then it would be nice if Julian were to provide similar research material to support his assertion.

 

However, while I admit that NGC's presentation on the matter is excellent, it is by no means conclusive because they're using a justification by a preponderance of evidence that is by no means scientifically conclusive.

 

EVP

 

I agree. Julian should post the diagnostics and research material if he expects people to believe that it is a proof or specimen striking. If he did, and his claim was substantiated, everyone would shut up and go away. I'm sorry, claims based on unsupported evidence don't impress me. One who is going to argue against expert grading services should carry the burden of proof in my opinion.

[MarkFeld]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

This seems like pretty incontrovertible evidence, and definitive confirmation that Julian's coin is not and cannot be a proof. I haven't examined his coin in hand, but I'll trust that at least 6 graders between NGC and PCGS have. If it doesn't display the diagnostics, no amount of arguing to the contrary will make it so.

 

Faced with this evidence, how does your opinion of the situation change?

 

Assuming it's the same coin, then it would be nice if Julian were to provide similar research material to support his assertion.

 

However, while I admit that NGC's presentation on the matter is excellent, it is by no means conclusive because they're using a justification by a preponderance of evidence that is by no means scientifically conclusive.

 

EVP

 

Unless I misread the article (and I admit to having only glanced at it), the coin NGC examined/discussed was not even PL. And if that's the case, it's not the same coin.

[Hard Times]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

This seems like pretty incontrovertible evidence, and definitive confirmation that Julian's coin is not and cannot be a proof. I haven't examined his coin in hand, but I'll trust that at least 6 graders between NGC and PCGS have. If it doesn't display the diagnostics, no amount of arguing to the contrary will make it so.

 

Faced with this evidence, how does your opinion of the situation change?

 

As I noted, I sided with the TPG graders and trust their assessment and it was nice for NGC to publish their evidence on how they distinguish the buisness strikes and proofs. Even if it is not the same coin as Mark notes, they clearly know how to attribute these during the GRADING process.. How about you James Early US? 19Lyds? You folks were pretty darn vocal on this issue. What do you say now?

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

 

This seems like pretty incontrovertible evidence, and definitive confirmation that Julian's coin is not and cannot be a proof. I haven't examined his coin in hand, but I'll trust that at least 6 graders between NGC and PCGS have. If it doesn't display the diagnostics, no amount of arguing to the contrary will make it so.

 

Faced with this evidence, how does your opinion of the situation change?

 

As I noted, I sided with the TPG graders and trust their assessment and it was nice for NGC to publish their evidence. How about you James Early US? 19Lyds? You folks were pretty darn vocal on this issue. What do you say now?

 

Best, HT

 

I agree with your post and certainly think Brandon's post is relevant here, but I also feel the need to point out that Julian's coin is an 1893. Does anyone know whether the 1893 proofs, if they exist or are rumored to exist, would have been struck from the same dies (but modified date) or from dies made from the same master hub?

 

FWIW, I do not believe Julian's piece to be a proof coin.

[Kurtdog]

Quite amazing that the featured article in NGC's email today was this:

 

From the Grading Room: Business Strike 1892 Columbian Half Dollar with Proof Diagnostics

Now there's a coincidence.

[Kurtdog]

"Experts can readily tell them apart with just a cursory examination."

 

If that were the case we wouldn't be having this 15-page thread now would we?

[James_OldeTowne]

Your original comment:

 

"The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing."

 

Well last time I looked, assessing 'strike' is part of the GRADING process. So I may be just a stupid ole bubba who is basically erroneous to say that TPG graders have to make a decision as to whether this coin by Julian is proof or buisness strike but it is what is it - grading company, they grade coins.

Then I suggest you do more research. We all know that "strike" is part of the grading process of course. But with regard to Columbian half-dollars in particular, "strike" is also part of the attribution process re: proof versus circulation strike, and an expert such as Mr. Julian Liedman knows this. Thus, you can continue to refuse to acknowledge his long years of experience in this matter, but if he has a stance regarding a coin's potential proof status, I am willing to at least read what he has to say without automatically assuming that PCGS and/or NGC is infallible.

 

All I said is if two TPG's say it is not proof, I am going to go with their opinion over the dealer. Silly me.

Oh, of course, it would be silly to ever question the opinions of a third-party grading service!

 

I still take issue with the poster above siding with Julian as though he's proven the coin in question is in fact a proof. Until someone at a TPG who knows the series says it is in fact a proof, the clear and convincing evidence is that it's not. The fact that a questionable coin is for sale (whether E-Bay or anywhere else) demanding money only suitable to a proof is the issue the OP raised.

I do not know whether or not the coin is a proof, but I do know that if an expert of Julian's caliber thinks it MIGHT be, then I won't automatically assume he "must" be wrong !

 

As I noted, I sided with the TPG graders and trust their assessment and it was nice for NGC to publish their evidence on how they distinguish the buisness strikes and proofs. Even if it is not the same coin as Mark notes, they clearly know how to attribute these during the GRADING process.. How about you James Early US? 19Lyds? You folks were pretty darn vocal on this issue. What do you say now?

Here's what I say: READ what NGC stated! I quote:

 

Proof Columbian Half Dollars are distinguishable from business strikes most readily by the exceptional crispness of their devices and their flat, hard-mirrored fields. Prooflike examples are plentiful and, while they may possess deep mirrors, they do not share the sharp detail and texture of the proofs.

 

I'll be darned if this "exceptional crispness" isn't exactly what I alluded to when speaking of the detail in the sail's ribbing in my first post to this thread!.

 

So we go all the way back to the very beginning of the whole argument, which is that NGC/PCGS has an opinion, and so does Julian. I've never professed to which one is "right"... NGC is very competent.... so is PCGS.

 

It's been a fun thread, but it seems to have gone on much too long at this point not to have any real value diluted by all the ranting on both sides.

 

Just because someone disagrees with an NGC/PCGS OPINION about something, that doesn't make them automatically WRONG. It just means they have a DIFFERENT opinion.

[coinman_23885]

Just because someone disagrees with an NGC/PCGS OPINION about something, that doesn't make them automatically WRONG. It just means they have a DIFFERENT opinion.

 

I don't think anyone has said this at all. I think that people are analyzing the coin on its own merits. With this said, what is your opinion? If you were a grader at PCGS or NGC and had to make the call, would you put it in a proof holder? Also, other than the mirrors and strong strike particularly on the "fully ribbed sails," is there anything that makes you think that this could legitimately be a proof? If this is the only criteria that you are using, how would you distinguish between a well struck proof like and a proof?

 

P.S. I am not asking to be annoying or disrespectful; I am asking because I respect your opinion. I would also respect Julian's opinion much more if he didn't do this all of the time even with coins where it isn't even close (i.e. some of the capped bust materials previously). I do, however, have a problem believing that the TPGs always err with his coins and that they are frequently undergraded or are frequently proof or specimen strikes that have been unattributed. To be sure, mistakes exist, but I think statistically the odds of all of these coins being mistakes is small. Also, did you check out his other polished "proof" that also appears in a NGC details slab? I am curious what you think about it as well.