Here we go again. A cleaned Unc coin advertised as Proof

[lehigh96]

 

 

 

That's all you got? If so, that was some very weak cabbage. Yep you are a crusader and transparent at that.

 

Anyways I find it interesting that the two graded details Columbian halves are listed at $19500 and the the Columbia Proof in 64 PF in a non problem holder is $5000 LESS!!! However, that is typical Julian. He believes those two details graded coins to be more valuable then the graded 64 PF, He marks his prices as he see fit and not what it says on the slabs. He is stubborn and believes he is right.Guess since they are his coins he can do what he wants which them.

 

MJ,

 

The reason the details coins are priced higher is because they are dated 1893. The 1893 proof Columbians are considerably more rare than the 1892 Columbians.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I see Mr. Leidman jumped all over posters on the PCGS website when they questioned his judgment on this coin. Personally, I am happy to make 5% on coins at auction and ebay.

 

I don't know by what criteria you would determine a Columbian to be a proof, but on criteria for narcissism, wikipedia has the following

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

[HCumberdale]

I see Mr. Leidman jumped all over posters on the PCGS website when they questioned his judgment on this coin. Personally, I am happy to make 5% on coins at auction and ebay.

 

I don't know by what criteria you would determine a Columbian to be a proof, but on criteria for narcissism, wikipedia has the following:

 

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

Shows arrogant, haughty behavior or attitudes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

 

First of all, even though I know only a miniscule amount of information about Mr. Leidman, it does not appear to me at all appropriate to even consider him for narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) using the DSM-IV criteria you provided. Furthermore, NPD has minimal research to validate the disorder itself and the criteria to qualify for the disorder have been poorly defined, and developed.

 

Second, for various reasons, including those above, the DSM-IV criteria for personality disorders is being completely phased out with the introduction of the DSM-V and a completely new (and better) way of thinking about how personality disorders are defined. Namely, with the DSM-V a person with a personality disorder reflects "adaptive failure" involving: "Impaired sense of self-identity" or "Failure to develop effective interpersonal functioning". Mr. Leidman does not appear to be even close to meeting this first criterion and thus should not be considered for any personality disorder whatsoever.

 

Please be more judicious when throwing out psychiatric diagnoses around and leave the diagnosing of others to professionals.

 

Thanks!

 

[19Lyds]

I see Mr. Leidman jumped all over posters on the PCGS website when they questioned his judgment on this coin.

Huh?

 

To quote Julian's replies in the original PCGS thread:

 

"<< it just seemed odd to me that anyone would challenge PCGS on the subject coin. >>

 

Seller here.

 

FYI, everytime someone resubmits a coin or cracks one out they are challenging the services. "

------------------------

"<< Unfortunately, this is the 1893 dated Columbian. The chances of this being a proof are very low, and the chances of PCGS or NGC ever cerifying another 1893 proof are almost nil.

 

However, this coin has nicely squared rims, reflective surfaces, better detail than most Columbians, and frosted contrasting devices. NGC has only certified 3 of the 1893 Columbians as DPL, and this coin may have qualified before cleaning.

 

Contrary to the OP, an $80 coin this is not. Not even close.

 

If Julian has this at his table at Baltimore, I'd like to take a look. Whether or not it's a proof, the coin looks special. >>

 

 

 

Table #400. Please come by.

 

BTW, I cannot read your post on the Proof Columbians. "

----------------------------

"This coin was purchased from dealer Harry Jones from Cleveland, by dealer Will Rossman and myself. Harry obtained it from Aubrey Bebee, a legendary name in the world of Commemoratives.

 

It is quite intersesting how many people choose to stand behind their anonymity here.

 

Identify yourself.

 

Most of the serious numismatists have done so."

 

 

Where's the "jumping"?

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

When I first saw the op's thread at PCGS, I emailed Mr. Swiatek who had no comment. The real experts in this field are just not interested but NGC's judgment should show a pretty final assessment. If experts on this coin wanted to write a letter of opinion of the coin as a likely proof would such a letter be legally signicant?

 

The topic is getting tired....

 

 

 

[MJ]

 

 

 

That's all you got? If so, that was some very weak cabbage. Yep you are a crusader and transparent at that.

 

Anyways I find it interesting that the two graded details Columbian halves are listed at $19500 and the the Columbia Proof in 64 PF in a non problem holder is $5000 LESS!!! However, that is typical Julian. He believes those two details graded coins to be more valuable then the graded 64 PF, He marks his prices as he see fit and not what it says on the slabs. He is stubborn and believes he is right.Guess since they are his coins he can do what he wants which them.

 

MJ,

 

The reason the details coins are priced higher is because they are dated 1893. The 1893 proof Columbians are considerably more rare than the 1892 Columbians.

 

Yes, understood. MJ

[MJ]

When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

 

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

 

And Richard Nixon also had quite nice credentials.....and we know how that ended up.

 

That's all you got? If so, that was some very weak cabbage. Yep you are a crusader and transparent at that.

 

Anyways I find it interesting that the two graded details Columbian halves are listed at $19500 and the the Columbia Proof in 64 PF in a non problem holder is $5000 LESS!!! However, that is typical Julian. He believes those two details graded coins to be more valuable then the graded 64 PF, He marks his prices as he see fit and not what it says on the slabs. He is stubborn and believes he is right.Guess since they are his coins he can do what he wants which them.

 

Thank You.

 

You are certainly welcome. MJ

[MJ]

When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

 

MJ,

 

I have a ton or respect for you and I don't know anything about Mr. Leidman. I will take your word that everything you wrote about him is true and that he is an incredibly knowledgeable numismatic dealer. Having said that, I still think his attempt to sell this coin for $20K stinks to high heaven. If he disagrees with the opinion of NGC & PCGS and is as well connected as you say, then he should resolve the situation with the Presidents of the TPG's and make his case for why the coin should be attributed as a proof. But to take a $20 coin and slap a $20K price tag on it and call the $19,980 "his opinion" just strikes me as, WRONG!

 

I looked at his E-Bay listings and he has a handful of coins which he states that he disagrees with the TPG grade and then adds thousands of dollars to the price of the coin. The current system in numismatics relies upon the acceptance of the grades assigned by third party graders. If you disagree with the grade, you resubmit in hopes of getting a higher grade. He seems to want to circumvent the system. I am not even saying that he is not right with some of the grades that he disagrees with. However, I won't give him a pass simply because he is a very accomplished numismatic dealer.

 

Despite the apparent crusade that the OP has taken against Mr. Leidman, I still think the OP has a legitimate concern. That said, I don't agree with his course of action to start these rather silly threads. My course of action is simple, I won't buy a coin from Mr. Leidman while he continues to play outside the rules.

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul

 

First off thank you. The respect is mutual between us.

 

Second, I have never bought a coin from Julian and doubt I ever will. Julian's prices are all over the map and he's been running his business model like this for a very long time. So somehow it must work for him. Please understand that he is very opinionated and firmly believes what he is saying is true with total conviction. Since they are his coins he is free to market them as he sees fit. You are entitled to keep your wallet in your pocket. All of his listings show the slab clearly and he goes on and states his disagreement with the TPG's. He also states that one needs to see the coin to form their own view. Pretty straight up in my opinion. He does appear to violate the Ebay keyword "spam" rule by listing it as a "proof" in the title. This is a Ebay problem. Let them handle it.

 

I always say hi to Julian at shows but never look in his cases anymore. Not worth the aggravation. I suggest others do the same on his listings if they bother you. Those coins aren't going anywhere.

 

Julian has educated and mentored many fine numismatist's over the years and I respect him for that. That's it.

 

MJ

 

 

[johnny9434]

make an offer to seller of $2.00, see what happens

[MarkFeld]

make an offer to seller of $2.00, see what happens

 

Why? That sounds like a waste of time and insulting behavior, with no upside at all.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

 

That's all you got? If so, that was some very weak cabbage. Yep you are a crusader and transparent at that.

 

Anyways I find it interesting that the two graded details Columbian halves are listed at $19500 and the the Columbia Proof in 64 PF in a non problem holder is $5000 LESS!!! However, that is typical Julian. He believes those two details graded coins to be more valuable then the graded 64 PF, He marks his prices as he see fit and not what it says on the slabs. He is stubborn and believes he is right.Guess since they are his coins he can do what he wants which them.

 

MJ,

 

The reason the details coins are priced higher is because they are dated 1893. The 1893 proof Columbians are considerably more rare than the 1892 Columbians.

 

Beat me to it.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I see Mr. Leidman jumped all over posters on the PCGS website when they questioned his judgment on this coin. Personally, I am happy to make 5% on coins at auction and ebay.

 

I don't know by what criteria you would determine a Columbian to be a proof, but on criteria for narcissism, wikipedia has the following:

 

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

Shows arrogant, haughty behavior or attitudes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

 

First of all, even though I know only a miniscule amount of information about Mr. Leidman, it does not appear to me at all appropriate to even consider him for narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) using the DSM-IV criteria you provided. Furthermore, NPD has minimal research to validate the disorder itself and the criteria to qualify for the disorder have been poorly defined, and developed.

 

Second, for various reasons, including those above, the DSM-IV criteria for personality disorders is being completely phased out with the introduction of the DSM-V and a completely new (and better) way of thinking about how personality disorders are defined. Namely, with the DSM-V a person with a personality disorder reflects "adaptive failure" involving: "Impaired sense of self-identity" or "Failure to develop effective interpersonal functioning". Mr. Leidman does not appear to be even close to meeting this first criterion and thus should not be considered for any personality disorder whatsoever.

 

Please be more judicious when throwing out psychiatric diagnoses around and leave the diagnosing of others to professionals.

 

Thanks!

 

That all you got?

Big deal.....

[James_OldeTowne]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

[Kurtdog]

[...] I have never bought a coin from Julian and doubt I ever will. Julian's prices are all over the map and he's been running his business model like this for a very long time. So somehow it must work for him. Please understand that he is very opinionated and firmly believes what he is saying is true with total conviction. Since they are his coins he is free to market them as he sees fit. You are entitled to keep your wallet in your pocket. All of his listings show the slab clearly and he goes on and states his disagreement with the TPG's. He also states that one needs to see the coin to form their own view. Pretty straight up in my opinion. He does appear to violate the Ebay keyword "spam" rule by listing it as a "proof" in the title. This is a Ebay problem. Let them handle it.

 

I always say hi to Julian at shows but never look in his cases anymore. Not worth the aggravation. I suggest others do the same on his listings if they bother you. Those coins aren't going anywhere.

 

Julian has educated and mentored many fine numismatist's over the years and I respect him for that. That's it.

 

MJ

MJ, this is the thing with that "keyword spam." We're the ones being spammed. Not eBay. They're just letting him get away with it.

[Hard Times]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

 

Professional graders, with no stake in the coin, at PCGS, and NGC, disagree with it being proof. I think I will side with the professional graders here. This is a classic example of why numismatists should thank heavens for TPG grading and slabs and why the past days of raw only coins, where the dealers opinion on the coin they are selling may be overvaluing the coin, is in the past. Someone could have bought this based on Julian's opinion in the past before TPG and taken a serious hit......

 

Best, HT

[Raisethis2]

As I recall we went through this with another Julian coin about six months ago. I think the issues (his insistence that the TPG 's got it wrong and he listed a coin for hundreds of times more than it's actual value) were similar. He even weighed in on the discussion of that thread.

 

I don't fault the OP here at all. I'm sure my comments will mirror those I made at that time. I know from experience that there are countless buyers on E-Bay that are clueless when it comes to coin grading. I also know that there are any number of people buying gifts or for investment purposes at all levels of income. It seems to me that integrity in these matters requires Julian to price his coins appropriately for what they are, not what her wishes they are.

 

How would Julian react if I insisted he buy my Columbian Expo Commem for Proof money? Because he knows better he'd say GTFO. The difference is that not everyone who trolls E-Bay knows better. That's what his 30 cent listing is trying to exploit.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

 

Professional graders, with no stake in the coin, at PCGS, and NGC, disagree with it being proof. I think I will side with the professional graders here. This is a classic example of why numismatists should thank heavens for TPG grading and slabs and why the past days of raw only coins, where the dealers opinion on the coin they are selling may be overvaluing the coin, is in the past. Someone could have bought this based on Julian's opinion in the past before TPG and taken a serious hit......

 

Best, HT

 

I was going to keep my big mouth shut, but (blah,blah), I have a problem with the logic of this opinion.

 

I am not for or against Mr. Julian. I do not know Julian, Julian is no friend of mine, and I am certain you are no Julian.

 

The thrust of your posit is that since 2 TPGs, via their paid Graders that do not have a vested monetary interest in the coin, have declared the coin is of a type certain, then these Graders are not capable of being wrong.

 

Now, I hate people who wear Suspenders with wrinkled old whiteish/grey shirts and roll around on a rickety old chair at coin shows as much as the next guy, (even though it is a good gimmick) however, I would suspect that the opinion of Mr. Julian is just as valid as any other "expert".

 

The "...classic example..." declaration may not be valid.

 

We have all experienced the TPG "oops" coins. The overvaluing days are not over and have not disappeared. What has changed is the personal knowledge and self-responsibility of the dedicated collector/purchaser, and, yes, the coin dealer.

 

I will thank Heaven that there have been one heck of a lot of books mass published and readily and cheaply available for the collector than ever before to educate us, and I will thank Heaven for the internet (and maybe even throw a little angel dust on Heritage for their excellent website), and I will thank Heaven for the authors like RWB that give their all to the hobby, and out of love for numismatics.

 

I don't think the TPGs should be praised to the highest for a marketing program that delivers something to customers that is still an opinion, and nothing more.

 

Opinions wrapped in pretty packaging are still opinions. The TPGs will sell all you desire. I can appreciate why you are a member of their Church, and do not find any fault with you being a member, nor do I find fault with the TPGs or their marketing model.

 

But (blah,blah) when we condemn the opinion church of another, and declare it blasphemy, we risk our own right to opinion.

 

Now, wearing the suspenders, especially when unshaved, is a different story... go get him!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[brg5658]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

 

Professional graders, with no stake in the coin, at PCGS, and NGC, disagree with it being proof. I think I will side with the professional graders here. This is a classic example of why numismatists should thank heavens for TPG grading and slabs and why the past days of raw only coins, where the dealers opinion on the coin they are selling may be overvaluing the coin, is in the past. Someone could have bought this based on Julian's opinion in the past before TPG and taken a serious hit......

 

Best, HT

 

I was going to keep my big mouth shut, but (blah,blah), I have a problem with the logic of this opinion.

 

I am not for or against Mr. Julian. I do not know Julian, Julian is no friend of mine, and I am certain you are no Julian.

 

The thrust of your posit is that since 2 TPGs, via their paid Graders that do not have a vested monetary interest in the coin, have declared the coin is of a type certain, then these Graders are not capable of being wrong.

 

Now, I hate people who wear Suspenders with wrinkled old whiteish/grey shirts and roll around on a rickety old chair at coin shows as much as the next guy, (even though it is a good gimmick) however, I would suspect that the opinion of Mr. Julian is just as valid as any other "expert".

 

The "...classic example..." declaration may not be valid.

 

We have all experienced the TPG "oops" coins. The overvaluing days are not over and have not disappeared. What has changed is the personal knowledge and self-responsibility of the dedicated collector/purchaser, and, yes, the coin dealer.

 

I will thank Heaven that there have been one heck of a lot of books mass published and readily and cheaply available for the collector than ever before to educate us, and I will thank Heaven for the internet (and maybe even throw a little angel dust on Heritage for their excellent website), and I will thank Heaven for the authors like RWB that give their all to the hobby, and out of love for numismatics.

 

I don't think the TPGs should be praised to the highest for a marketing program that delivers something to customers that is still an opinion, and nothing more.

 

Opinions wrapped in pretty packaging are still opinions. The TPGs will sell all you desire. I can appreciate why you are a member of their Church, and do not find any fault with you being a member, nor do I find fault with the TPGs or their marketing model.

 

But (blah,blah) when we condemn the opinion church of another, and declare it blasphemy, we risk our own right to opinion.

 

Now, wearing the suspenders, especially when unshaved, is a different story... go get him!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I don't see any mention of infallibility in HT's post. HT simply stated that if he was putting his money on an opinion, he would take that of the 5-6 professional graders who have seen the coin in hand at PCGS and NGC, and who all came to the same opinion that it was an impaired/cleaned non-proof. That's all.

 

 

 

[comicdonna]

I know from experience that there are countless buyers on E-Bay that are clueless when it comes to coin grading. I also know that there are any number of people buying gifts or for investment purposes at all levels of income. It seems to me that integrity in these matters requires Julian to price his coins appropriately for what they are, not what her wishes they are.

Exactly. It doesn't bother me so much seeing him list it as proof, because he did disclose the background of the coin. The price on the other hand does bother me. There are many (myself included) who may not know the true value of this coin. Sure a good buyer will do his homework but, the BIN is deceitful IMO.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I get carried away...I am a very bad person.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

[copper toning]

No longer in a PCGS Unc holder, now a NGC Unc improperly cleaned holder.

 

Ebay ought to boot this guy.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

I did not read any of the thread discussion, but based on the images, that coin DOES look like a very rare proof Columbian half-dollar. The strike is key to attributing these, and the fully ribbed sails look awfully convincing.

 

I can't speak to any so-called cleaning, but even a cleaned proof would be very valuable.

 

Professional graders, with no stake in the coin, at PCGS, and NGC, disagree with it being proof. I think I will side with the professional graders here. This is a classic example of why numismatists should thank heavens for TPG grading and slabs and why the past days of raw only coins, where the dealers opinion on the coin they are selling may be overvaluing the coin, is in the past. Someone could have bought this based on Julian's opinion in the past before TPG and taken a serious hit......

 

Best, HT

 

+1

[Old Pueblo]

What did we do before TPGs? Must have been a lot of arguing about coin grade and attributes

 

 

Geez

[brg5658]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

 

They are your opinions. I don't disagree or agree with them. However, I do get lost sometimes in your novella-like responses written in lawyer's English.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

 

They are your opinions. I don't disagree or agree with them. However, I do get lost sometimes in your novella-like responses written in lawyer's English.

 

For this I apologize.

 

You did read it though.......

 

I detect a slight unhappiness with my Posts.

 

I suggest not reading anything I post, and this will assist you in not having to respond.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

What did we do before TPGs? Must have been a lot of arguing about coin grade and attributes

 

 

Geez

 

Yep, just like now.

[Kurtdog]

We have all experienced the TPG "oops" coins. The overvaluing days are not over and have not disappeared. What has changed is the personal knowledge and self-responsibility of the dedicated collector/purchaser, and, yes, the coin dealer.

 

I will thank Heaven that there have been one heck of a lot of books mass published and readily and cheaply available for the collector than ever before to educate us, and I will thank Heaven for the internet (and maybe even throw a little angel dust on Heritage for their excellent website), and I will thank Heaven for the authors like RWB that give their all to the hobby, and out of love for numismatics.

 

I don't think the TPGs should be praised to the highest for a marketing program that delivers something to customers that is still an opinion, and nothing more.

 

Opinions wrapped in pretty packaging are still opinions. The TPGs will sell all you desire. I can appreciate why you are a member of their Church, and do not find any fault with you being a member, nor do I find fault with the TPGs or their marketing model.

 

But (blah,blah) when we condemn the opinion church of another, and declare it blasphemy, we risk our own right to opinion.

I like the way you explained that. You know, John, you're not a bad old goat, after all.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

We have all experienced the TPG "oops" coins. The overvaluing days are not over and have not disappeared. What has changed is the personal knowledge and self-responsibility of the dedicated collector/purchaser, and, yes, the coin dealer.

 

I will thank Heaven that there have been one heck of a lot of books mass published and readily and cheaply available for the collector than ever before to educate us, and I will thank Heaven for the internet (and maybe even throw a little angel dust on Heritage for their excellent website), and I will thank Heaven for the authors like RWB that give their all to the hobby, and out of love for numismatics.

 

I don't think the TPGs should be praised to the highest for a marketing program that delivers something to customers that is still an opinion, and nothing more.

 

Opinions wrapped in pretty packaging are still opinions. The TPGs will sell all you desire. I can appreciate why you are a member of their Church, and do not find any fault with you being a member, nor do I find fault with the TPGs or their marketing model.

 

But (blah,blah) when we condemn the opinion church of another, and declare it blasphemy, we risk our own right to opinion.

I like the way you explained that. You know, John, you're not a bad old goat, after all.

 

I appreciate your kindness.

Now, go explain it to brg, then beat him up for me...I can't find my slippers.

[Keigwin]

Actually, professional graders do have a stake in the coin. At least their employer does.

Lance.

[brg5658]

However, I note that you do not disagree with the general points of my thoughts.

 

They are your opinions. I don't disagree or agree with them. However, I do get lost sometimes in your novella-like responses written in lawyer's English.

 

For this I apologize.

 

You did read it though.......

 

I detect a slight unhappiness with my Posts.

 

I suggest not reading anything I post, and this will assist you in not having to respond.

 

Maybe you missed my wink?? ;) ;)

 

I have no problem with your posts. Though, I'm not sure why you made reference to your Posts as a proper noun?