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Here we go again. A cleaned Unc coin advertised as Proof

Started by JIM F.,

230 posts in this topic

JIM F.

JIM F.

Posted
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Posted
What would you suggest eBay boot him off of their on-line auction service for?

 

Keyword spam. Title says "proof". The coin is not a proof.

 

 

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Kenneth F

Kenneth F

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Posted

Brother, he covered his butt in the description. He said, In our opinion, this is a proof coin . The CYA phrase is, in our opinion.

 

sorry for the ... something is wrong with my keyboard..

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mikew148

mikew148

Posted
Posted

EBay should make him remove the word Proof from the Title and he should add his comments in another area of the listing if he feels he needs to. He's not the only one with misleading titles on eBay. I often do a search for DMPL/PL coins and can most times find a couple that are graded without a DMPL/PL designation and have the same comment "looks DMPL/PL to us".

 

 

This listing is strange to me because we have a seller with virtually a 100% Positive feedback rating on 9500 transactions. Why would he risk losing his credibility if he didn't honestly think this was a proof coin? Looks like he tried to have NGC reevaluate the opinion given by PCGS. I think he believes it's a proof. Maybe someone could shed some light on this seller. The 4 negative feedback comments he received appear to be buyers that didn't have a clue they could return an item.

 

 

Is there any possibility this coin is a proof?

 

 

 

 

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brg5658

brg5658

Posted
Posted
EBay should make him remove the word Proof from the Title and he should add his comments in another area of the listing if he feels he needs to. He's not the only one with misleading titles on eBay. I often do a search for DMPL/PL coins and can most times find a couple that are graded without a DMPL/PL designation and have the same comment "looks DMPL/PL to us".

 

 

This listing is strange to me because we have a seller with virtually a 100% Positive feedback rating on 9500 transactions. Why would he risk losing his credibility if he didn't honestly think this was a proof coin? Looks like he tried to have NGC reevaluate the opinion given by PCGS. I think he believes it's a proof. Maybe someone could shed some light on this seller. The 4 negative feedback comments he received appear to be buyers that didn't have a clue they could return an item.

 

 

Is there any possibility this coin is a proof?

 

Mike, just some background in case you missed the first go-around of this piece.

 

Firstly, the coin is up for sale by a very well known old-timer dealer who also happens to be (or at least he was) on the PCGS board of experts. Julian Leidman has written extensively on numismatics, and has received awards from both ANA and PNG. People who know him (I don't know him) attest to his character, and I have no opinion of him as a dealer or numismatist as I have never interacted with him.

 

Secondly, the coin was previously on eBay with a similar description, but in a PCGS Genuine UNC holder. It was taken down about a month ago (at the discretion of the seller) after a similar thread to the one here was started (I believe by the same poster). This coin has thus been reviewed by experts at PCGS and now also at NGC, and both TPGs agreed that it was an impaired (cleaned) non-proof version of the commemorative. Yet, it appears back on eBay with the same description and the same $20K range price tag.

 

I'm not imparting any of my personal opinions here, as I feel the last "lynching party" devolved into a mess -- I just wanted to get the facts in this thread so people know some of the back story.

 

 

 

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Mark T

Mark T

Posted
Posted

PCGS and NGC calls it cleaned and Julian still calls it a proof – now that is arrogance at its highest level . He really does cross the line - just take a look at all the other details coins that are graded cleaned or questionable color that he is saying are proof or NT.

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mikew148

mikew148

Posted
Posted

What's the process for evaluating a questionable coin like this? Can we be sure that the graders involved all agreed? Does there have to be 100% certainty or could this be an Unc. details coin instead of a proof by a vote of 3-2 from the TPG companies?

 

Anybody have - facts - on what happens inside the grading room in a case like this? Are there cases where split decisions are made?

 

I think the OP is correct in pointing out the title as improper and that the

seller should be told to remove the word Proof from the Title.

I do not agree that he should be shown the door by eBay.

 

Funny, I'm trying to give the seller credit for sticking to his guns, for what he seems to believe is true, but I wouldn't buy this coin even if I had Millions in disposable income.

 

 

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
What's the process for evaluating a questionable coin like this? Can we be sure that the graders involved all agreed? Does there have to be 100% certainty or could this be an Unc. details coin instead of a proof by a vote of 3-2 from the TPG companies?

 

Anybody have - facts - on what happens inside the grading room in a case like this? Are there cases where split decisions are made?

 

I think the OP is correct in pointing out the title as improper and that the

seller should be told to remove the word Proof from the Title.

I do not agree that he should be shown the door by eBay.

 

Funny, I'm trying to give the seller credit for sticking to his guns, for what he seems to believe is true, but I wouldn't buy this coin even if I had Millions in disposable income.

 

 

If this was an isolated occurrence, I would definitely see your point. This is not the first coin that has been labeled as a proof by the seller when the TPGs have opined differently. On some of the others, particularly the capped bust material, it wasn't even close. This will be my one and only post on this.

 

To the OP; you started a thread on this before, why beat a dead horse? Did you report the listing? If not, do that. If you did, and eBay refused to remove the listing, then there is really nothing further to be done. At least the seller did adequately reveal that the grading services differed with him and showed the image of the problem coin description. I don't particularly care for the practice, but at least he adequately disclosed everything. If someone is naive enough to purchase the coin as a proof, I have little sympathy for him or her.

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Kurtdog

Kurtdog

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Posted
Secondly, the coin was previously on eBay with a similar description, but in a PCGS Genuine UNC holder. It was taken down about a month ago (at the discretion of the seller) after a similar thread to the one here was started (I believe by the same poster). This coin has thus been reviewed by experts at PCGS and now also at NGC, and both TPGs agreed that it was an impaired (cleaned) non-proof version of the commemorative. Yet, it appears back on eBay with the same description and the same $20K range price tag.

Persistent bugger, ain't he? :grin:

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Kurtdog

Kurtdog

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Posted
Funny, I'm trying to give the seller credit for sticking to his guns, for what he seems to believe is true, but I wouldn't buy this coin even if I had Millions in disposable income.

He strikes out here, you watch. In another month it's going to be in an ANACS holder. :grin:

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MJ

MJ

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When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

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JIM F.

JIM F.

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When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

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timo16

timo16

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Posted

You know I have a couple of V Nickels I got in a lot that I have been told are polished but look proof to me. I could see how someone could make that error sometimes. These coins do cast a reflection.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

You mean this one?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Polished-/190765937567?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2c6a89339f

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JIM F.

JIM F.

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WOW!!!!!

 

 

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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Squabbling aside, I think it provides an interesting academic exercise to look at (1) Julian's NGC PF64 grade coin, (2) his improperly cleaned NGC UNC details coin,

and (3) his polished NGC UNC details coin, all of which are being sold as proof. I am hoping that a serious discussion about diagnostics and what not will result from this thread. :) Perhaps I am being optimistic.

 

 

Coin 1: 1892 NGC PF 64

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1892-PROOF-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-PF-64-Toned-/190765870913?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2c6a882f41

Coin 2: 1893 NGC UNC details (improperly cleaned)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Cleaned-/181039054206?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a26c4bd7e

Coin 3: 1893 NGC UNC details (polished)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1893-Proof-Columbian-Commemorative-Half-Dollar-NGC-Details-Polished-/190765937567?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2c6a89339f

 

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MJ

MJ

Posted
Posted
When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

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JIM F.

JIM F.

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When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

 

And Richard Nixon also had quite nice credentials.....and we know how that ended up.

 

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MJ

MJ

Posted
Posted
When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

 

And Richard Nixon also had quite nice credentials.....and we know how that ended up.

 

That's all you got? If so, that was some very weak cabbage. Yep you are a crusader and transparent at that.

 

Anyways I find it interesting that the two graded details Columbian halves are listed at $19500 and the the Columbia Proof in 64 PF in a non problem holder is $5000 LESS!!! However, that is typical Julian. He believes those two details graded coins to be more valuable then the graded 64 PF, He marks his prices as he see fit and not what it says on the slabs. He is stubborn and believes he is right.Guess since they are his coins he can do what he wants which them.

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JIM F.

JIM F.

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Posted
When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

 

And Richard Nixon also had quite nice credentials.....and we know how that ended up.

 

That's all you got? If so, that was some very weak cabbage. Yep you are a crusader and transparent at that.

 

Anyways I find it interesting that the two graded details Columbian halves are listed at $19500 and the the Columbia Proof in 64 PF in a non problem holder is $5000 LESS!!! However, that is typical Julian. He believes those two details graded coins to be more valuable then the graded 64 PF, He marks his prices as he see fit and not what it says on the slabs. He is stubborn and believes he is right.Guess since they are his coins he can do what he wants which them.

 

Thank You.

 

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lehigh96

lehigh96

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Posted
When do you figure this one will show up on Ebay? Submitted by the same person.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3662500-003

 

 

We don't have worry as you will be sure to tell us.

 

Julian is crystal clear in his listings what the TPG's have graded this coin. So far all you have offered that he did wrong is that he used "Proof"as keyword spam in his title. It sounds like a Ebay problem. Take it up with them.

 

Are you actively seeking a Columbian Proof to buy or do you just have an obsession with Julian? I think you are obsessed and are on a crusade.

 

MJ

 

Thank you for your question. I am actively purchasing "classic" US Proofs. Do you have any to offer, or are you obsessed with insulting people you do not know?

 

Who is Julian? No one I know or care to know.

 

Thank You.

 

I was just speaking clearly so if you took it as an insult so be it.

 

Juiian Leidman is the lister of the Columbian Proof in your OP as you very well know by now.

 

Here is a little background on him which you actually may not know and probably don't care.

 

PCGS Board of Experts

Julian Leidman

Numismatic Expert

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. colonial coins, patterns, ultra-rarities, die varieties, Hard Times tokens.

Julian Leidman began his career as a professional numismatic dealer and consultant over 40 years ago. Julian boasts an unbroken record of attendance at every major U.S. coin auction since 1968, where he represented not only himself but as many as 25 bidders at a time. Along the way, Julian handled some of the most important U.S. coins. He assisted in the completion of the finest collection of double eagles ever assembled, he was involved with the 1973 sale of the renowned Wilkison collection of gold pattern coins, and he assembled specialized collections of all early U.S. coins by die variety. Julian consults with corporations, dealers, and collectors to build world-class collections and to promote numismatics. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Professional Numismatists Guild, of which he is a proud member. Contact Julian at Julian@JulianCoin.com or visit his website at www.juliancoin.com.

 

MJ,

 

I have a ton or respect for you and I don't know anything about Mr. Leidman. I will take your word that everything you wrote about him is true and that he is an incredibly knowledgeable numismatic dealer. Having said that, I still think his attempt to sell this coin for $20K stinks to high heaven. If he disagrees with the opinion of NGC & PCGS and is as well connected as you say, then he should resolve the situation with the Presidents of the TPG's and make his case for why the coin should be attributed as a proof. But to take a $20 coin and slap a $20K price tag on it and call the $19,980 "his opinion" just strikes me as, WRONG!

 

I looked at his E-Bay listings and he has a handful of coins which he states that he disagrees with the TPG grade and then adds thousands of dollars to the price of the coin. The current system in numismatics relies upon the acceptance of the grades assigned by third party graders. If you disagree with the grade, you resubmit in hopes of getting a higher grade. He seems to want to circumvent the system. I am not even saying that he is not right with some of the grades that he disagrees with. However, I won't give him a pass simply because he is a very accomplished numismatic dealer.

 

Despite the apparent crusade that the OP has taken against Mr. Leidman, I still think the OP has a legitimate concern. That said, I don't agree with his course of action to start these rather silly threads. My course of action is simple, I won't buy a coin from Mr. Leidman while he continues to play outside the rules.

 

Paul

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