Cause of PL Coins

[physics-fan3.14]

As far as the distinctive PL coins of 1934-1954, I know of several examples, from this period, of specific die varieties that started out fully prooflike and can be collected through each stage of die deterioration, from mirrored to heavy frost. Several prominet ones from 1947-S include 25C FS-501, 25C FS-502, and 10C FS-501. The evidence suggests that these dies were prepared with this unique finish before striking began.

 

The question really is - were the dies polished as a part of their manufacturing process (and thus, the PL's will be extremely early die states), or where they taken later and repolished (and will thus be later die states). In my experience, many of the S-mint PL's of that era are mid- to late-die states, showing die breaks and clashing. This would lead me to believe that mint workers, in an effort to repair or lengthen the life of the die, polished them and returned them to service.

[coinman1794]

As far as the distinctive PL coins of 1934-1954, I know of several examples, from this period, of specific die varieties that started out fully prooflike and can be collected through each stage of die deterioration, from mirrored to heavy frost. Several prominet ones from 1947-S include 25C FS-501, 25C FS-502, and 10C FS-501. The evidence suggests that these dies were prepared with this unique finish before striking began.

 

The question really is - were the dies polished as a part of their manufacturing process (and thus, the PL's will be extremely early die states), or where they taken later and repolished (and will thus be later die states). In my experience, many of the S-mint PL's of that era are mid- to late-die states, showing die breaks and clashing. This would lead me to believe that mint workers, in an effort to repair or lengthen the life of the die, polished them and returned them to service.

 

Where are the pre-refurbished examples of the varieties I mentioned, if that is the case? I don't think the mint marks were re-punched in order to strengthen worn dies. Also, in the case of the 1947-S FS-502 25C, the earliest stage, only, shows a 4th S, making it the earliest known stage of the die.

 

I do not recall seeing die cracks on the earliest stages of the 1934-1954 PL coins, though many times the PL coins, especially the 1949-S Franklins, seems to have lost much of their original reflectivity, and yet are still being called PL. I've only seen 1 49-S 50C that I would consider the earliest stage, in fact.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I've only seen 1 49-S 50C that I would consider the earliest stage, in fact.

 

Got a pic? Mine seems to be a very early die state.

 

[newprepper]

That one is so early they still hadn't fixed the crack in the bell

[coinman1794]

No, I don't. But is it an early die state, or a refurbished die?

[JVC]

I find it interesting that you so quickly dismiss the opinions of Van Allen, Mallis and Bowers who are experts on Morgan Dollars.

 

If all PL/DMPL coins are caused by polishing of dies after making repairs, then why do we have so few PL Peace Dollars?. Were these dies not repaired and then polished after they were repaired? The reason we do not have PL Peace Dollars is because the working dies of the Peace Dollar were never basined in the same way as the Morgan Dollars.

[Conder101]

Re: Many dies pretty much go from annealing and hubbing straight to coining.

 

That’s correct – because the curvature is part of the shape of the hub. If the die did not deform, then its radius (“basin”) remained correct and nothing would be done to change it.

I might buy that if you include hardening in between hubbing and coining. Hubbing will work harden the die steel but I doubt if it would be sufficient for coin production.

 

He probably dismisses them because while they were good for their time much of their information is probably based on theory and from examining the coins. A LOT of RWB's information comes from going through the original documentation in the National Archives among other sources.

[RWB]

I do not "dismiss" them or their knowledge lightly. Their opinions were the best we had -- long ago. Now we have better information. That's called "progress."

 

Peace dollars (about which I did the research and wrote the book), had an irregular curvature and could not be treated like the old Morgan design. This was consistent with the initial designs for all of the new 1909, 1913 and 1916 designs. The artists did not care about a uniform basin because they were medalists - and curvature was immaterial.

 

Because the design and hubs had no uniform basin, some repair techniques used for Morgans could not be used on Peace dollar dies. Further, by 1922 all the mints used identical dies and metallurgical knowledge had progressed so that only a few working dies of any design needed to be re-basined. If you look at Peace dollars closely, you will see lots of "scratches" left from spot repair, but almost no large area abrasion.

 

[cladking]

I might buy that if you include hardening in between hubbing and coining. Hubbing will work harden the die steel but I doubt if it would be sufficient for coin production.

 

Point taken. I have little doubt you're right.

 

A LOT of RWB's information comes from going through the original documentation in the National Archives among other sources.

 

This is exactly why I'd be extremely leary of gainsaying any of RWB's points. But mint reports only speak of what is intended to occur while things do go wrong and aren't always caught. Some pretty major things don't show up in the mint reports and I suspect that's much more common in modern times than it was when Morgan dollars were made. For instance about 96% of 1981-P quarters in mint sets have wavy and unattractive surfaces but the others appear to come from basined dies. It can be very difficult to figure out how many of the things of this nature occurred but there certainly won't be an answer in the 1981 mint report or at least there's no clue I can identify.

 

Curiously '81-P quarters are one of the toughest moderns in nice PL.

 

 

[RWB]

The modern research done by Bob Julian, Len Augsberger, Joel Oroz and several others not only improves our understanding of how and why the Mint operated, but it illustrates that we also lack a lot of information. (Compare the Oroz-Augsberger book about the First Mint with any of its predecessors --- )

 

The mints had normal processes and procedures which resulted in more or less normal coins. The exceptions - repaired, re-basined, undercut and patched, over punched - are the things that were not entirely normal.

 

Every bit of new information rests on what was discovered in the past. That does NOT mean that past information was entirely accurate, however even the “wrong” information points to a path of reality. Good research is much like the scientific method – even negative results have positive value.

 

[RWB]

A bit further –

US Mint documents contain no journals that describe exactly how a die was made, or how they were repaired. It takes a lot of research and analysis to piece together how things worked. The coins produced from dies factor into this too, and they hold clues to what was done to dies before and during use. (I.e.: Use of a face-on rotating basin lap will leave curved micro-grooves; use of an edge-on abrasive wheel will leave straight micro-grooves. What do the PL coins say?)

 

The "From Mine to Mint" book is my feeble attempt to do this as best I can. It is neither complete nor entirely comprehensive - I doubt any such work will ever be - it is just the best that can be done for now.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

A bit further –

Use of a face-on rotating basin lap will leave curved micro-grooves; use of an edge-on abrasive wheel will leave straight micro-grooves. What do the PL coins say?

 

You tell me:

 

[RWB]

Manual, or partial abrasion or repair will be less ordered than full or mechanized work....

 

Die sinkers and engravers used a range of small manual tools to smooth surfaces or remove minor damage. Wood sticks with crushed ends dipped in emery powder, cotton swabs, and abrasives of various coarseness. Add them all together and mix with a range of individual skills and competencies, and the results are all sorts of surface artifacts. VAMpires call some of these "scribbles" and have identified hundreds of different dies - many dated 1921.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm just trying to understand, Roger. Thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a lot of what I "knew" about PL's is wrong - but I still love them.

 

And, because what is a thread about prooflikes without a couple of pictures, here is a Feldini special, photog'd by Bob Campbell.

 

 

Ah HA!

 

I KNEW they existed...(late 19th century PLs in denominations other than $1 Morgans.)

 

Let's see some more!

[comicdonna]

[RockMyAmadeus]

Based on the coins from SF, they appear to have ground off parts of the design, then tried to cover the mistake by scratching in details. .

 

Oops.

 

Is this why several early (1878-1885) Morgans exhibit lots of design missing? Over-basined dies that they didn't bother to fix?

 

Like this:

 

 

(1882-O/S)

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm just trying to understand, Roger. Thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a lot of what I "knew" about PL's is wrong - but I still love them.

 

And, because what is a thread about prooflikes without a couple of pictures, here is a Feldini special, photog'd by Bob Campbell.

 

Ah HA!

 

I KNEW they existed...(late 19th century PLs in denominations other than $1 Morgans.)

 

Let's see some more!

 

You can see all I have in my Registry set, linked in my signature. But, since you asked....

 

The only DPL graded Seated Liberty Quarter in the entire series. You could easily shave in these mirrors:

 

[JVC]

I do not "dismiss" them or their knowledge lightly. Their opinions were the best we had -- long ago. Now we have better information. That's called "progress."

 

Peace dollars (about which I did the research and wrote the book), had an irregular curvature and could not be treated like the old Morgan design. This was consistent with the initial designs for all of the new 1909, 1913 and 1916 designs. The artists did not care about a uniform basin because they were medalists - and curvature was immaterial.

 

Because the design and hubs had no uniform basin, some repair techniques used for Morgans could not be used on Peace dollar dies. Further, by 1922 all the mints used identical dies and metallurgical knowledge had progressed so that only a few working dies of any design needed to be re-basined. If you look at Peace dollars closely, you will see lots of "scratches" left from spot repair, but almost no large area abrasion.

 

Roger, I need you to clarify some of your discussion points so that I can better understand your postition. On Morgan Dollars dies that were basined, does the process of basining cause coins struck from such dies to exhibit PL features? Were dies that were basined also polished? Does your research indicate what percentage of dies for Morgan Dollars were basined?

[RWB]

On Morgan Dollars dies that were basined, does the process of basining cause coins struck from such dies to exhibit PL features?

 

All Morgan dollar dies were prepared to specific radii – or basin. That was part of the master die and all the hubs from which working dies were struck. After final hardening, the next-to-last step was to check the radius of the die – sometimes the radius changed during hardening and tempering. The small group of defective dies, would then be corrected and this is where the abrasive used could introduce a semi-mirror surface to the fields.

 

Were dies that were basined also polished?

 

If a die needed to be re-baisened, then it could have ended up with a semi-mirror surface. US Mint staff seemed to use the term “polish” along with some sort of modifier. Proof dies were described as “mirror polish.” Most other times, the word polish was combined with the type of abrasive (grit) in use so that phrases such as “flour polish” or “crocus polish” or “coarse polish” described the expected results that were common knowledge to all the users.

 

Does your research indicate what percentage of dies for Morgan Dollars were basined?

 

No. The engraving department records likely had that information, but those records have never been located.